I read the news that some leaders are trying to get reservation in private sector. Felt depressed; now when finally India has hope with private sector doing well and generating employment and income for the country, the leaders want to make it unproductive by tying a millstone to it's neck.

Private sector is about getting talent and if a person's caste is of no consideration to them as they want to run their companies smoothly and to best productivity. Reserving seats will mean that they cant hire and fire at will, nor would they be able to hire the best. Will reservation have produced a Nandan Nilekani? Will Infosys have made it big with reservation?

If they want to reserve jobs in private, will they reserve roles in movies/TV serials i.e. 50% of hero and 50% of heroines should be from reserved category, or that 50% of cricketers should be from reserved category since they make so much money [there's no end to this madness].

If they succeed in implementing reservation in private then the India will hurtle to the abyss of darkness, where there will be no private jobs and the people will left to fight over a few handful of government jobs leading to social unrest.

It looks like government has failed miserably in uplifting the poor and downtrodden so they want to make the whole population poor and downtrodden by destroying private enterprise.

One last thought- Throughout my stay in India I noticed people have been getting reservation for generations and were actually much better placed than many so called non reserved categories; where as the true Dalits were still in villages/towns and still oppressed. Isn't it high time that there should be a rule that children of MLAs/MPs/government officers/doctors/engineers/lawyers and rich businessmen should not get reservation so that the true Dalits/downtrodden get reservation? - Shashank Prasad - Dec. 21, 2005

I am in complete agreement with Mr. Chaubey and Mr. Prasad. These so-called proponents of social justice and class struggle should be taken out of commission once and for all. I don't care what our leaders (mostly incompetent who are not even fit to become a theater usher) say, our country has gradually become a communist nation. Everything else is just play on words. Class struggle, social justice - these rhetoric have been going on since Aug. 15, 1947 - all we have achieved is creating terrorists otherwise known as leftists and Naxalites.

There are morons out there who will now accuse me of being an upper caste determined to destroy the lower caste but like I said, they are morons and their proletariat skewed view of the world doesn't change the truth. Reservation is nothing but a gimmick to gain votes by dividing community on caste lines - no more, no less. Surprisingly, there are even bigger morons who believe in these slogans and instead of shining on their merits, they want someone to feed them for free for the rest of their lives without having any responsibility of their own.

The likes of Paswans and Mayawatis are curse to India. They are determined to destroy the country so they can sit on top of their thrones to rule an entire nation made up of idiots thanks to Charwaha School for Dummies. This is their goal and this is their hope.

Yesterday it was reservation in government jobs; today it is reservation in private sector, tomorrow it will be reservations in Bollywood (as Shashank Prasad put it), then they will force reservation in your own family - "you MUST marry half of your children in SC/ST/OB/MBC community; or when you prepare your last will, you MUST give away 70% of your property to a member of backward community". Then in real estate: "60 percent of your tenants MUST be from the SC/ST/OB/MBC class". Then comes the part of sharing your income (which I think is already in place in some hidden form) - "70% of your income MUST be given away to the members of SC/ST/OB/MBC class". This will be followed by: "You MUST buy your next house built by an engineer who got admission in engineering college via reservation"; "and you MUST get your appendix removed by a doctor who entered the medical college based on reservation and acquired only 20% or less in the final exam".

This is utter madness. Where does it stop? Why can't these champions of democracy work hard to provide quality education to the youths from the 'oppressed class'? Have they ever thought of providing them financial assistance for admission in good schools or colleges? Oh no, that would be too inhumane!!! They will have to work too hard then! And only idiots work hard to achieve their goals and dreams!

God save our country from doctors who couldn't tell the difference between a stethoscope and a telescope and engineers who couldn't build a small thatched hut let alone an entire building or a bridge! - Anil Kumar - Dec. 21, 2005

It is quaint. Our leaders go around begging foreign investors to invest in India, convincing them about what a wonderful climate exists in our country for making investments. The same leaders back home turn from Dr. Jekyll to the monstrous Mr. Hyde and talk of imposition of Draconian rules and laws on the private industries.

India dreams of developing the China way. I request readers to compare the FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) attracted by China and India. You can find it on the Net. India attracts pathetically less FDI as compared with China. If a bunch of clownish leaders were to jump up with foolish demands all the time, what kind of confidence can we instill in the prospective investors? Are we planning to grow up or down?

The Government has to ask these anti-national leaders to shut up as it is the Government's job to gain confidence and bring investment into the country. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 21, 2005

Folks, don't you worry. Whatever may a minister say, India has gone past the point that reservations can be imposed in the private industry. Ministers are mostly uneducated bums who are looking for a cheap way to gain popularity among their voters.

Since the markets were opened up by Rao/Singh, India has tasted the (till then) forbidden fruit of open and competitive markets. While India is gearing up to take some of the eggs out of its software basket and put them in the manufacturing basket, the voice of an old-school minister asking for divisive reservation policy in the private sector should be ignored. That minister will not find any supporters to his absurd demand. It is feeding time, no one will stand in line or take turns here - because the Chinese aren't doing so. Industrialists and businessmen will never let this minister succeed in his malicious mission. It is a dog-eat-dog world in the Private Sector - especially when one talks of competing with China.

In this day and age, Reservation is out of the door - at least in the private sector. If a so called upper caste guy comes up with a patent of say a fuel efficient Engine, will the minister deny it to him and wait till a similar discovery will be made by a Dalit? The open market sees only one color - the color of money. It does not see the caste of who the money comes from or who the money goes to.

Ambedkar is irrelevant now. It may be hard for some to swallow, but the truth is the truth and it is about time to wake up and smell the roses! - AARCEE - Dec. 21, 2005

While reservation is a small price to pay for thousands of years of abetting and supporting the ultimate crime of humiliating and suppressing millions of fellow Indian citizens resulting in India's slavery and current third world country status, I am against the concept of reservation at this time in the life of the Indian nation. First of all it creates divisions in the society and makes it weaker. Some might argue that the divisions in the society are grave even now but we need to give our society a chance to break out of this mess. The problem of casteism in India is reflection of social instability in India (or vice versa). By highlighting the differences between fellow citizens right from the school going age, India is digging itself a hole. Some of the benefits or reservation cannot be denied. It helps in empowering and including the largest section of the society in the Indian nation. The doctors who get into medical collages through their lower caste status are much more likely to serve in a lower caste area compared to a doctor coming from a higher caste background. But its effect of breaking a society far outweighs the positives especially at this time in the life of the Indian nation when we have people from all castes already in decision-making positions. - Som Vishwakarma, USA - Dec. 21, 2005

Bill for quota in private institutions has been passed.

Some of these private institutes used to take more than 30 lakh for medical seats. Does a person able to pay this kind of money need reservation? It's just vote bank politics. - Shashank Prasad - Dec. 21, 2005

Wow so much anger and frustration at reservations. The so called "upper castes" really think they got where they are because of their abilities? Had modern India anything to do with meritocracy, the level of poverty in India would not have been so extant.

As far as reservations in Bollywood -- hmm, I didn't know Abhishek Bacchan, Kareena and Karishma Kapoor (and the whole Kapoor lot) Hema Malini's daughter, Sanjay Dutt, the ugly Uday Chopra got to act in movies due to their fantastic acting ability?!!! Nepotism is more like it. If that's the kind of example the idiots from the "upper caste" gave -- I'm all for reservations!

How about Congress (I) who have it in for the entire Gandhi pariwar before they give the Prime Ministership candidacy to anyone else? Or the BJP who oust any backward caste leader whenever they get more popularity.

WAKE UP DUMB INDIANS AND SMELL THE COW DUNG! No one in India can claim they got their education/ job because they deserved it -- most people got their jobs through connections or were wealthy enough to pay for their education.

Now, when Indian public schools can provide equal playing fields for the poor, then you can whine and complain -- but until then, tough! - Nidhi Singh - Dec. 22, 2005

Let's not waste time in criticizing caste based reservation in private sector. This in bound to happen considering the kind of democracy we live in. “Caste” based reservations are sure shot way to grab votes. Its like bribing the voters. The sad aspect that the law makers in this country don’t trust their work and performance to get votes and resort to caste and communal (including minority communal) tactics. The great Laloo Yadav who in my opinion reaped the maximum benefit of caste and communal politics once said that you don’t need to do any development work to get votes. Although he was declared “Vikash Purush” by our learned prime minister. We would have reached the ambitious target something like 100% reservations much before but thanks to our courts who kept interfering and came in the way. Now coming to my initial advice that lets not waste time in criticizing. What we should do then??

Only way to get rid of this kind of politics is to make conscious effort to get rid of caste politics. I am surprised that why government does not realizes caste politics as a bigger threat to national integrity than communal politics? Why we don’t talk of getting rid of casteist forces like communal forces? Why don’t different parties unite form non casteist alliance on similar lines of “secular” alliance?

All this has reduced the talented people to second class citizens in India. We must find solutions to these questions else the queue for getting work permit abroad is likely to get longer. - Ashish Shekhar - Dec. 22, 2005

The biggest problem with present reservation system is that most of the time it is availed by only a few people time and again at all levels.

Even if reservation is put to 100% a poor rickshaw-wala's son has 98% chance to pull the rickshaw.

Most of the proponents of reservation are concerned in the %sheet reserved not about %utilized. Unless it is implement properly it will benefit only few. Dalit leaders do not want the community to develop and they will be able to exploit forever. - Om Kumar, Application Engineer - Dec. 23, 2005

I am surprised at such strong language by Ms. Singh. Let me emphasize that in my response I had expressed anguish about reservation in private sector because that’ll make Indian industries unviable in world market; and I think no successful company in the world runs on CEOs because of their caste. Industries will move to other places where they’ll be able to choose people who they want rather than what the govt. wants, which will be bad news for all Indians. Movie stars and cricketers are chosen because of their acting /performance/ability to attract audience; if they don’t act/perform the movie goes to bin or the match goes to bin and so does their career. If Kareena makes good business for producers they’ll hire her irrespective of her caste and family. It is an analogy to explain why private enterprise should not be tied down to rigid labour laws.

I asked whether people who have been benefiting from reservation for generations should be allowed to do so on expense of the real dalits/downtrodden in villages. I worked as a doctor in rural Maharashtra for 1 year and saw the real dalits there; where as in medical colleges in Bombay many of the people who had benefited from reservation used to drive their own santros/zens etc. (while still in medical school) and one of them changed his mobile every month despite being a non-creamy layer OBC. Should not these people be sympathetic of the real downtrodden and willingly let the less advantaged take benefit of reservation? or should not the govt implement the reservation for truly deserving i.e. apply creamy layer for SC/ST too and check whether people are really not from creamy layer in case of Ms. Singh claims that none in India can claim that they got their education/job because they deserved it.

Do you forget all those hard working students [many from Bihar too] who get through all India entrance exams like IIT, IAS, CBSE etc. Does Tendulkar bribe the selectors to be in the team or Amitabh pays people to watch his movies? BJP ousting backward caste leaders - Mr. Nitish Kumar (OBC) is CM with BJP support and Mr. Modi deputy CM enjoys the status of OBC in Bihar. [Mind you I am not a supporter of any political party but just pointing out the facts] "Upper caste Idiots" I don’t know about others who have responded to this article but I do not belong to so called upper caste. I would prefer not to comment on the idiot part of the statement. In summary I would like to say, anger does not serve anyone’s purpose. Reservation in govt jobs is a fact, so let’s try to get benefits for people who are truly are oppressed instead of diverting attention of people by enacting laws (i.e. reservation in institutes where people pay lakhs to get admission) which benefit the rich few amongst the people who are entitled for reservation. Reservation in private sector will destroy Indian industry and will be the road to hell for India. - Shashank Prasad - Dec. 23, 2005

Nidhi Singh is off balance. I do not know if Nidhi Singh is a he or a she. As the name suggests, Nidhi Singh is a lady but her language is most un-lady like. Perhaps a sanskaar problem. She is so bugged she has resorted to calling names and fueling a caste war on PD.

Anyway, no amount of screaming and filthy language can change the truth. She seems to belong to the "creamy class" among the backward community. This "creamy class" is the unholy beneficiary of the caste based reservation policy which is supposed to uplift the poor. In practice they have taken advantage of their poor co-caste brothers and sisters and hijacked the advantages which were their due. It is something like stealing from the plate of a blind beggar. Taking advantage of him because he can not see.

This is not much of a Forward-Backward war. It is more a "CREAMY CLASS" backward vs POOR backward war.

When one feels he/she is occupying an undeserved position, the person will try to generalize and project that all the people of the whole world are occupying undeserved positions and hence he/she need not be ashamed of it. She is enraged perhaps because truth hurts and the language is what she has been brought up with so do not mind her language. Personally I count her out of the discussion. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 23, 2005

Ms. Singh couldn't be farther from the truth. Her loathe for 'the so called upper castes' is so apparent (what's with the 'so-called' bit?) that it's not even worth discussing. Very cleverly she has tried to divert the issue from reservation in jobs to the 'pairavi' culture. In case she didn't know, they are two separate things - both evil - but still two separate issues.

According to her, every single forward caste person got a job because of 'pairavi' and money power. According to her, every upper caste person was born with silver spoon in his/her mouth; there are no poor upper caste people. According to her, every upper caste person has political or other connections to find a job in his or her desired field. According to her, and I quote " No one in India can claim they got their education/ job because they deserved it." No one? Not even you, Ms Singh? Or maybe you don't have a job!

Lady, you need to wake up and smell some roses. Smelling cow dung can severely damage one's brain.

"...most people got their jobs through connections or were wealthy enough to pay for their education." And since when becoming wealthy has become a crime, Ms. Singh? Or you want to change the Constitution so it does become illegal to be wealthy? If I have money and I send my children to Delhi or Nainital or Doon or the USA or Australia for higher studies - you have problem with that? That shows the class envy in you and other leftists like you. People like you are more busy eyeing and envying other people's wealth than trying to create their own.

As for the Bachchans and Kapoors and Gandhis, films and politics are their business, their livelihood. I see absolutely no harm in father/mother passing their batons to their offspring; just like a dying businessman hands over his business to his son/daughter. But apparently you have problem with this and you expect reservation in that too. I probably won't go and see a stupid movie of regardless of who is in it but that doesn't give me, or you, the right to stop them from following their parents footsteps if they wish so. Or do you have problem with that too?

Unfortunately people like Nidhi Singh are so brainwashed by JNU-brand leftist ideas that they don't even know they have been brainwashed.

I am done with Ms. Singh even after she fires back more hatred towards upper/rich class. I know she can't be convinced and any further discussion with her would be a waste of time. - Anil Kumar - Dec. 23, 2005

I am wondering what kind of problem Nidhi Singh has. Despite her capability to write reasonably good English, she writes ONLY when she finds an opportunity to comment (with an extreme position) on the caste/reservation issue. Her language is foul. Calling other readers "Idiots" is not disagreeing but being disrespectful. I have been left wondering if the Editor let it pass through to put her in the "People's court"? Normally such hate speech is edited out.

I have opposed other writers' viewpoints but I have not called them names. I have attacked their stance and style - not them. But calling other PD readers "Idiots" is not only wrong, it is like spitting at the sky. Mixing Nepotism with Reservations was deceitful. Nepotism was another topic and am sure most readers would oppose it too. I wonder what other readers think about Nidihi Singh's style of writing, her use of expletives and how they expect the editor to handle her articles. I personally think that uncivil articles should be either edited clean or dropped altogether. - Arecee - Dec. 23, 2005

Nidhi, I have read your comments. While I can understand your feeling the question of reservations have become a issue more for Bihar, UP and other backward states only. One thing you will have to accept that by lowering required merit for any reason you are ultimately harming less upper castes and more to backward caste. During so called backward class rule in Bihar and UP who suffered more you go and read statistics. The people who are at bottom of ecosystem will suffer maximum from such measure.

I don't know if you are in USA or not. But if you are in USA for longer time (like me) then probably you must have noticed that a Government can neither create job for you nor keep you happy. A government can only enable to you to become rich and prosperous or hinder your growth.

If lower caste people are still thinking that job will be created for them because of their large populations and vote bank and without much effort they will get their livelihood they are living in fools paradise. Now from Laloo and Mayawati's rule it is proven beyond doubt that you will have to compete and prove yourself not to your neighbor or upper caste but to the whole world.

If Lower caste of Bihar and UP don't recognize this soon enough I believe they are going to be in slave like situation for another hundreds of years of course that also means these states will also go to stone age more like the way Bihar is going. - Kaushal - Dec. 23, 2005

I agree with Nidhi Singh. In India people don't get admission to good institutions, jobs and position of power based on their talent. The proof? India is a third world country, the law and order is broke and people are living in misery and suffering. How many IIT'ians have won Noble prize? How many IAS and IPS officers are honest and talented? How many politicians are honest? How many businesses and government organizations are talented and honest? I think reservation policy reflects a historical need of empowering people and building a stronger nation. The 'upper caste' people need to be aware of these facts sooner or later and stop living in denial and imaging themselves to be the most intelligent, most honest and most talented people in the world. It’s time to wake up to the reality (however bitter it might be) and let facts and actions speak louder than words. - Rajesh Sahu, Manchester, UK - Dec. 23, 2005

And I rest my case!

What a bunch of hypocrites! A people who are accusing the government of pandering to "backward" and lower castes can't take the FACT that the MAJORITY of Indians are practicing nepotism and those who are middle/upper middle class are not smarter or better than other people, just wealthier wonder why getting reservations is a bad thing?

Do they even know that it was due to visa "reservations and Quotas" that Indians get into foreign countries and get work? We won't hear Indians whining about those reservations once they get to a foreign country and earn dollars and pounds...JUST BOTHER THE POOR PEOPLE, RIGHT? Just whine and complain about them getting reservations, because Indians can't stand it when their own piece of the nepotism pie goes into someone else's mouth.

If nepotism isn't a bad thing as someone here argued, than neither is reservations. Hypocrisy, thy name is human!

I am sorry, I am not a member of the "creamy" caste or care for any other stupid nonsensical terms worthy of people with I.Q.'s of morons. I was raised in the U.S. for most of my life, I only see the half-baked hypocrisy and inability of ALL the castes in India to have a heart and let those who don't have money, land etc. get a decent FREE education with ONE DECENT MEAL A DAY.

People are comparing India to China? China doesn't have caste politics or discrimination - nepotism, yes. U.S. has racism, nepotism, reservations in the private sector has not destroyed U.S. businesses.

When people stop talking about castes and start working to level the playing field and provide EQUAL EDUCATIONAL opportunities and job opportunities for people who work hard -- than you talk about work ethic and unfair reservations are valid...until then India is full of incompetence from the top to the bottom -- anyone who goes to India can see that.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that kind of incompetence certainly wasn't born from people who got their jobs because they deserved it. - Nidhi Singh - Dec. 23, 2005

All I can say to Nidhi Singh and Rajesh Sahu is that you can wake up a sleeping person but you can not wake up a person feigning to be asleep. Why are you all circumventing the main issue and talking in very generalized terms. No generalized unconnected talk. No filthy talk too. Remember this is supposed to be a forum for decent people. If you can not talk sense please do not camouflage your bankruptcy of ideas with abusive language. We would love to hear your views on the following specific points:

• This is not much of a Forward-Backward war. It is more a "CREAMY CLASS" backward vs POOR backward war.
• The "creamy classed" backwards have taken advantage of your poor co-caste brothers and sisters and hijacked the advantages which were their due. It is something like stealing from the plate of a blind beggar. Taking advantage of him because he can not see.
• God forbid, if you suddenly became very sick and a surgery became essential, would you like a reservation quota doctor to operate on you?
• Who will invest here if you force foolish rules and laws on them? Is it not an anti-national activity which is harming India even more than the terrorists?
• Why we should not get rid of casteist forces like communal forces?
• Have the backward leaders who were elevated to the highest positions by their poor co-caste brothers and sisters done anything substantial for them? Who is the enemy of who? Are the Forward caste people responsible in anyway?
• Laloo and Mayawati's rule have proven beyond doubt that you will have to compete and prove yourself not to your neighbor or upper caste but to the whole world. Your being a large vote bank will do nothing for you?

We would like a point-wise reply. After all it is all about convincing or getting convinced. The ultimate goal is the good of the society and the good of the nation. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 23, 2005

I find it funny that people are calling the backward caste rule as the worst time in Indian history. I will say they worst time in India is/was during upper caste rule rather than backward caste rule. The time during the ancient Gupta rule (so called Indian golden age) was worst than today since during that time 90% of the Indians were not even allowed to get education. The talents of the majority were destroyed and a desire to live a good life crushed, they lived worst than slaves. Also, the upper caste Indira Gandhi's rule created corruption and misery of the worst order. Narsimha Rao's rule created the worst corruption and scandals. The list goes on an on. There are a million and one reasons why tiny kings from Gazni in Afganistan to two bit ministers from Iran were able to make the whole of India into a slave country. Do the so called talented people ever think about some accountability for India's slavery and it's disgraceful failure? I don't think so. - Ramsharan, Orlando, Florida, US - Dec. 23, 2005

It is true that some castes have suffered for ages in India but that does not mean that there are no poor in the so called upper casts or there are no rich people in the so called backward castes. I have worked in remote villages of Bihar and have seen very very poor in both upper and backward castes. For any govt. any help to the weaker section of the society should only be based on the current earning situation and should be irrespective of the so called old cast system. People of low income should be helped and they all deserve the equal opportunity. We all were born the same way and we all carry the same blood (basic structure, not group). We all control our future and those who are underprivileged or economically challenged should have all kind of reservations in all sectors and educations up to certain degree. It is time to overcome this caste system which was created due to the need of that old time and society. It is 21st century. We all need to change and get away form this caste system completely to build a better and equal society. - Rajiv Sinha - Dec. 23, 2005

Nidhi Singh, you need not tell that you don't belong to the "creamy caste". It was obvious from your first letter. In fact this is one and only reason for your support to caste based reservation in private sector. Let me make one thing very very clear. This reservation in private sector is not intended for upliftment of poor and "dalit". It is meant for grabbing votes in the name of caste. Its other intention is to create hostility towards people belonging towards other caste so that the voters remain polarized. It's called divide and rule politics which we all know. Providing benefits to some people just because they belong to a particular caste and denying those benefits to other category of people just because they don't belong to that caste is the most idiotic policy.

Going by your letter it's obvious that our politicians have succeeded in their intention even before implementing such reservation. Your letter is an excellent example of caste-based mindset. It speaks nothing about upliftment of poor and only speaks of hostility towards other caste. Its because of people like you that politicians like Laloo and Mayawati are surviving. Making caste the main criteria of everything you do is your mindset. - Ashish Shekhar - Dec. 23, 2005

Does anyone else see the parallel between Nidhi Singh's arguments and the politician being interviewed on the TV as described by Mr. Chaubey in his original article above? That pretty much wraps up this discussion! - Amar Dasgupta - Dec. 23, 2005

Nidhi Singh has talked in cheap language and rested her case. Lady I rested your case after your first response itself. What you write shows an emotional discharge of hate. Who was the hate directed at? India? Indians? Forwards? Backwards? China? Chinese? Roses or was it against cow dung?

Don't tell the world "I was raised in the U.S. for most of my life." Do you call people "idiots" and "morons" there? Or are you a special case? We respect ladies and definitely you would not like other people calling you names. As you must have noticed, the cow dung, "idiots" and "morons" which you tried to hurl on other people landed straight back from where they were launched. Hope you like the smell. As has been rightly pointed out, the Editor let your comments pass through to put you in the "People's court" and, I must say, you made quite an impression about yourself. You may think others are "idiots" and "morons" but I give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you got the drift.

Ms. Singh your contribution to the debate has not been logical. Please write logically and in a decent language on this forum and we will all welcome your ideas. For your information most people who are writing in are very intelligent, intellectual people. They agree or disagree on points decently. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 23, 2005

I wanted to know something from people working in the US; is there anything like reservation in US? I know it's a stupid question but some leaders in India have been propagating this (if you read a particular leader in a particular national daily). They also say that US is a just country because it has Oprah Winfrey, a black who is rich, forgetting that India has dalit CMs and president which US never had (and also conveniently forgetting that Oprah did not need reservation to make it big).

I am a bit curious how these people came to this conclusion, because many of my family members are working in the US and they are not aware of any such thing. - Shashank Prasad - Dec. 23, 2005

The Prasads and Chaubeys of this group - you have problems with your last names. That makes you an automatic and natural enemy of people like Nidhi Singh and others who don't have 'upper caste' last names. Your crime is you were born in upper caste and therefore, you are born corrupt to the core and an oppressor.

On the flip side, with a last name like Yadav or Rai or Paswan or occasionally ambiguous Singh and other carefully hidden last names that don't reveal their castes (there are some in this discussion), they were born oppressed even when some of them were born and live in the USA. They don't do anything wrong or corrupt (Lalu is/was an exception, right guys?). Or could it be that Lalu is in fact an upper caste man hiding his identity to stay in power because a lower caste person can never do all those things that Lalu has been charged of. Aha! so that's why Lalu is corrupt; he belongs to an upper caste. Mystery solved, let's move on to the next discussion!

Prasads and Chaubeys and Jhas and Mishras - deal with it. You were born in the wrong caste and that's reason enough for the so-called backward and lower caste people to hate you. - Diwakar Mishra - Dec. 23, 2005

I will prefer some treatment by doctors from reserved OBC rather than no treatment from absent UC doctors from hospital. There are anyway only few innovators in the world rest is all about implementation according to process. I don’t see any reason why there should not be reservation in private jobs for people deprived for thousands of years.

No body will dispute that as per Manusmirti, Brahmans had reservation for thousands of years in highly unfair way, let our modern Manusmirti (constitution) work its way to rectify it.

Very recently I wrote on PatnaDaily about how I found it offensive when media was happy addressing an entire community as Ranvir Sena after Jehanabad Jail break by Naxalites, I found it offensive because I know that vast majority of that community wants justice for the deprived class. In India caste is a reality and it will be cheeky to pretend otherwise.

People will have to understand that it is not the poor, below poverty line farmers from a particular community who are feudal but it is the feudal system, which is keeping these SC/ST/OBCs deprived in the name of CREAM BUTTER MASALA.

Why only agri sector should take the burn of dissatisfaction among deprived why not other industry? Why only the innocent sons of poor farmers from a particular community be addressed as Ranvir Sena and feel insecure about their life doing the routine jobs in the fields?

Rather than morphing one racism on other like now offering poor upper caste farmers as Ranvir Sena to Naxalites and calling them feudal, it is time to face the music - RESERVATION IN PRIVATE COMPANIES.

Private companies listed in stock exchanges of India should be forced to offer reservation to deprived 90% population of India and those who fail should be told to do business somewhere else. This is the only way by which development of vast majority of deprived Indians can be fast tracked. In BPO, IT or in pharmacy firms there is hardly anything that requires merit, all are routine jobs. Now you know that it was just a myth that OBCs can’t read Vedas similarly this is also a myth that fast tracked doctors through reservation are going to be bad, they will be any day, any time better than UC doctors who are mostly absent from hospital. Forget about high end surgery in India, present doctors don’t even provide basic treatment. There will always be some cream but that does not mean people should stop drinking milk!

India belongs to SC/ST/OBCs and trying to come in their way is foolishness. One should learn from England the way they left India after realizing that India does not belong to them. Writing arrogant columns against reservation in PatnaDaily is OK but in Parliament, even BJP votes in favor of reservation for its survival. - Vipin Singh - Dec. 23, 2005

Vipin Singh makes his predictable Quixotic entry brandishing his sword. This time he appears with a sudden love for BJP. Come what he perceives as a Backward Forward debate and he is there boxing in the air. But who is he brandishing his sword at? There is a mirror in front of him. Let me remind him once again that as the population of POOR SC/ST/OBCs is much more, this debate is about the English speaking, Internet using "CREAMY CLASS" backwards who still want reservation for themselves and their kids vs the POOR backwards who do not know where their next meal would come from. How long do you want reservation for your family? For ever? Do you people have a conscience? Millions of your co-castes are starving out there. If you are so eager to participate, you are welcome to give your pointwise opinion on the debate points I listed.

In spite of Vipinji's noisy support Lalooji went under. Here is the next "Vikas Purush". The opinion of a person with such frivolous ideas should be taken with an ocean of salt. Please think deeply before writing in lest people will not take you seriously. You suggest that "Private companies listed in stock exchanges of India should be forced to offer reservation to deprived 90% population of India (are you and your likes in it?) and those who fail should be told to do business somewhere else. This is the only way by which development of vast majority of deprived Indians can be fast tracked."

Unfortunately Vipin Singhji this is an age of globalization and countries have to compete with each other. When you talk of circumventing merit, you will be left with poor quality man power while the good ones will go abroad and work for other countries. India will get no domestic investment or FDI that way and no one can be fast tracked if India goes off track. All Indian industries will loose out to foreign companies and you will be left with a very sick economy. The you will have to swallow your pride and go begging for aid. With China making giant strides in development, do you want to go the Tibet way? Shall we then continue a Backward Forward debate under Chinese supervision? Please think and write. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 24, 2005

Nidhi Singh, I admire your guts for standing your ground and stating the facts in front of vicious half-blinded attacks from certain vested quarters (who by the way, do not represent the true, majority India). You are my hero! Lot of these people want to preserve the caste system because it benefits them and their relations but when they come to America they complain about racism like they are totally innocent. - Rajendra Kumar - Dec. 24, 2005

I love it! Thank you Mr. Chaubey for the laughs, you have shown your true character or lack of it.

Now as for the issue of reservations, there is no issue. LET THOSE WITH PROVEN MERIT TALK ABOUT MERITOCRACY. Is there any meritocracy in India? Nah! Not for the past 2000 years of it anyway.

These same people are actually talking about Meritocracy and Bollywood in the same breath -- when truth be told -- there is very little meritocracy in Bollywood. This is the level of idiocy when dealing with the "so called" upper caste types.

The only people who are taking offense and fear are the "so called" upper castes, who have lived off caste reservations for the past 2000 years living it up under Muslim and British rule as traitors, while the other castes who didn't serve their new masters were called "backward castes". That is the definition of "so called" upper castes.

Oh yes, talking about meritocracy in the good old USA, President Bush got into Yale University thanks to his father (his grades weren't high enough to get in by himself) and now is President because of his father's name as well.

As far as the private sector is concerned, American companies are working fine as there are reservations to increase diversity in the office place which has benefited many immigrants, including Indians.

And I'll say this. I say give more reservations to the Dalits. They have been the most suppressed and discriminated of all. Everyone else in India has gotten freebies...why not them?

Quick question...how long does it take to provide a universal public education system in India?

Answer in India: too long...way too long! It's been 50 years, no decent schools!

Why?

'cause after we take all the money and feed it to our spoiled sons and make sure the family has enough black money so our sons can get into the best private schools, we don't have enough left over to make schools for the poor! Then after our sons get jobs in the private sector, we give the poor lectures on MERITOCRACY. :) - Nidhi Singh - Dec. 24, 2005

Mr Vipin, Nidhi, and other pro-poor, pro-reservationists people.

There was a time when I use to feel angry with pro-reservationists. Now I only feel sorry for them.

If reservation is going to do any harm in long term that harm is only going to be SC/ST/OBCs. And yes this is just Bihar and probably UP phenomena.

I have not seen how in past SC/STs were tortured or enslaved but I have seen how reservation have killed potential of SC/ST/OBCs people. I can't believe that among 5-6 crore people they don't have student who can get 60 % marks. That too after getting all the benefits. And they are not inferior genetically. It is solely due standard set for them that they should not get more than 50 % marks in any examination.

If I heard such argument from people from rural Bihar (Darbhanga and Madhubani) I can understand. But such arguments from people in USA; well Bihar you have long way to go. Upper castes of Bihar had learned several hard lessons but I don't think SC/ST/OBCs of Bihar have learned anything. Dear friends work hard, wake up and look at your fellow caste people from Kerala, Tamil Nadu. You will not get anything for free. Not in return of anything. Not in return of your oppression for 1000 years also. You will have to work hard struggle hard and forget everything all bitterness. Read how Nelson Mandela achieved freedom and prosperity for Black in South Africa. Try to understand how Martin Luther King achieved freedom and prosperity for black in America, see how Ambedkar reformed SC/ST in Maharashtra. The current Government in Bihar and UP and in India they are exploiting you. They are fooling you as vote bank. Nobody will help you. Nobody wants you to prosper not even Laloo not even Mayawati. If you prosper you will no longer be there vote bank.

You got reservation in Government job so what happened. You are far more worse now. Reservation in private job will not help you either. Economy of India is changing and this is last chance for Bihar and UP. If you keep fighting for reservation and for your caste only you are doomed.

You got all the Government Job in Bihar and UP. Had Laloo continued for another 10 years probably Bihar would have been free from upper caste. A state totally reserved for SC/ST/OBCs. Fair deal OK then.

OK all the SC/ST/OBCs people fight hard against all upper caste evil. Fight for reservation. Go and re-elect more messiah Like Laloo, Mayawati, Ram Vilas Paswan again. Never study to get more that 40 % marks (you don't need it). Never think of starting any business. Never take any blame on you.

And 100 years after today you will be in far more worse situation, take my word. If today your friends are not getting two time meal they will not get one time meal. But INDIA INC will move on. India will move forward with everyone (all caste from all states except SC/ST/OBCs from Bihar and UP). Your leaders like Laloo and Mayawati will get money and you will get reservation, you will get donation, you will get social security). - Kaushal Das - Dec. 24, 2005

I am totally against reservations. This is a curse to India: it destroys all productivity. How many coming from a reserved category have made any notable achievements? They seem to just be filling a gap and biding their time. If anyone dares to object to the reservations, a cry is raised that this is an affront to SC/ST. The whole of India has come to a standstill. The way the Govt is setting things up will hurt industry and send us back to the Stone Age. If multi-national firms come to India due to its pool of educated [and still bargain] laborers, it is fiscally irresponsible to hire SC/ST simply because they bear the label SC/ST. Private companies expect work of a certain caliber in exchange for a paycheck. I am not against them, but I am against the reservations.

Why isn't the Govt of India doing anything to make changes for them? So much has been done on paper, but it seems as if no real thought has been put in beyond making it look good. If the point is to make caste less of an issue, then why not provide free education for ALL Indians based on a set of income guidelines? Beyond, high school, make the continued aid dependent upon academic performance. If all people have the same opportunity for education, doors will be flung open for them, and barriers will fall away. If people compete for jobs on a level playing field, we all will benefit. There are poor people in every caste, every religion, every community. There will be problems with need-based aid, but there are problems and abuses in this reservation system as it stands now. How much money is wasted on workers who do nothing?

Once, I heard that someone applied for admission to an engineering college. The story goes that he never appeared for the entrance exam. When the results were posted, he was selected. I worry about what kind of engineer this will be. Bridges that collapse, houses that fall in on unsuspecting occupants. While I do not know if this story is true, it is enough that it can even be thought of as possible! What does it say about the reservation system?

When I was growing up in Bihar, there was a well-known incident regarding the reservation system. My father's friend retired, leaving his position open. They chose to fill the vacancy of Head Clerk with a man who met the reservation criteria. This man could not read or write. They hired two educated subordinates to do the job for him. All he had to do was sign where they showed him.

I was unable, as a college graduate (having two college degrees and many other certifications), to find a job in my native Bihar or even India. I worked in a couple of other countries for a number of years, and finally landed in the USA. I had to struggle very hard to find my place, but in this country, luckily, we do not have reservations the way we have in India. Now I have my own place here and I work in a world-renowned, reputable company. I have the kind of decent job that we dream about in India. This didn't come about because I am from an upper caste. Caste isn't an issue here.

Govt should not interfere in matters of private property. What's next? Will Govt decree how houses should be divided in order to provide for someone who does not have suitable housing? Such things should not happen.

Lastly, I think that there are ways to conduct ourselves that speak well of us as human beings and Biharis. I do not see a need to use inappropriate words. Civilized people understand that there are differing points of view, and that there is room for divergent opinions. Disliking a system that encourages people to basically cheat and not have to accept responsibility for their own welfare is different than disliking the persons themselves. We are not against anyone, we are against the system. While providing opportunities to ensure equal footing is admirable, perhaps some different criteria, applied fairly to all classes, makes more sense in a country seeing so much rapid change. - S. M. Khurshid Anwar - Dec. 24, 2005

Rajesh Ji, it is good that my opinions can be predicted. I was supporting Congress and RJD was an ally and there are some good things about Laloo Ji but if you don’t want to look at them then it is free world, what can I do? In democracy parties win and loose and it is a good thing, in fact like other Biharis even I am glad that Nitish Ji is now our CM and Sushil Ji our deputy CM. Rajesh Ji, I raised a point but you chose to ignore that and replied me back on points which suited you better and this is not fair. I am again raising that issue and will expect reply.

Why only the poor upper caste farmers in villages should face the full burn of dissatisfaction of deprived class in form of Naxalism? So far this Naxalasim is only focused on so called feudal below poverty line upper caste farmers (Scapegoat), elite India is willing to sacrifice Nellore to Nepal for FDI, but hang on a second, FDI for whom and for where? If there is no country left then for which India you will seek FDI? Because of existence of this skewed elite India and its weird racist standards, vast majority of Indians just depend on farming which is not sustainable and provides breeding ground for false ideology like Naxalism. You choose to ignore this issue, I am sure you will be left to talk about FDI for Somalia and not for India because there will not be an India. It will be better to dilute this problem which is highly concentrated in agricultural sector to other sectors such as Service Sector by opening up the opportunities for deprived people in MNCs and companies listed in stock exchanges in India.

You raised fear about FDI if MNCs and private companies are forced to offer reservation for SC/ST/OBCs. I am afraid your fears are unfounded. There are many ways Government of India can forcefully negotiate such a deal. In fact this will be a win-win situation for both parties. Here is just one of them. They want India to open its retail sector for TESCO and WALMART, government should allow it under the condition that they will offer 60% of jobs to deprived class. I doubt if these MNCs will deny offer like this. Either way they will get cheap labour. All those in India like Infosys CEO, who are writing columns after columns in favour of opening up of retail sector should be told that it will be opened up but they should offer reservation to deprived class first so that purchasing power of majority of Indians are boosted further and TESCO and WALLMART are more eager to do business with Indians and not just with Udit Chopra, son of Yash Chopra.

Rajesh Ji, India should not compete with China because for that first you will have to abolish our ‘money for question’ type democracy and make Sitaram Yechury our Mao. Trust me then we won’t be debating this issue and India will be much ahead of China. As Khushwant Singh said, “China is a uniform country, they eat everything, cow, pig, monkey, dog, snake.. but in India those who eat cow will not eat pig and there are many who will not eat even onion and garlic”. China has different objectives and methods of achieving them and India has its own objectives well defined in its constitution and methods of achieving them. Reservation is one of them but competing with China is no where mentioned in our constitution.
Different opinions, what can we do… - Vipin Singh - Dec. 24, 2005

After reading the divisive debate on the reservation topic, I feel that Lalu is definitely going to make a come back! My question to people like Mr Rajesh Chaubey is the following:

Do you think that the various Bihari castes are of the same race and ethnicity?

In case you feel that we are of the same race and ethnicity then why so much hatred for other castes (which is reflected by your policy of seeing ZERO good in the reservation policy and questioning the 'sanskars' of others).

In case you feel we are of different race and ethnicity then where did your ancestors come from and why should India be held hostage to foreign minorities interest?
Please think about where you come from before launching an all out attack on my post since in my earlier post I had made it clear that I am against all kinds of nepotisms and unjust preferential treatments including reservations AND the caste system but at the same time I accept reservations as a necessary tool for empowering the majority. Also I will never question the so called 'sanskar' of anybody including Nidhi Singh's and YOUR OWN (which you assumed would be good because of your own XYZ caste!). - Som Vishwakarma, USA - Dec. 24, 2005

Thank you Madam Nidhi Singh for the thanks. You are too generous. It is you who deserves all the thanks for providing comic relief when debating a serious topic. The credit for the laughs is all yours.

AS far as character goes, your language has revealed it all. While on the topic of Bollywood, watch Bollywood movies and you will find that all ladies with abusive language belong to one trade. Movies depict real life and we Indians are conditioned to think like that.

Apart from that your true character or lack of it is revealed by your noisy support for a caste based reservation policy which in effect is tailor made to suit the English speaking, Internet using "CREAMY CLASS" backwards who still want reservation for themselves and their kids and misses out the massive population of POOR SC/ST/OBCs who do not know where their next meal would come from. How long do you people want reservation for your family? For ever? Do you people have a conscience? Millions of your co-castes are starving out there. Why do you all always oppose reservation for poor people irrespective of caste? I repeat my words as each time you people fail to understand them or feign not to understand them.

As far as a public education system goes, if your poor co-caste brothers and sisters become enlightened will they continue to vote on caste lines? They will start talking about development and about snatching their rightful due from the CREAM BUTTER MASALAs (thank you Vipinji for that term). There are so many poor backwards that the day the obvious realization comes the CREAM BUTTER MASALAs will be lynched. They will have no place to hide. So thank your stars your good old leaders like Laloo and Mayawati have ensured that the poor remain uneducated and in the process ensured your safety. How long will it continue? You can worry about that. - Rajesh Chaubey - Dec. 24, 2005

It is heartening to see an incipient transition. As a matter of fact, it is more important to lay stress on execution process rather than planning. It is imperative to cater to the fundamental needs and security through effective and efficient administration and involvement of people at grass root levels in their roadmap to betterment of their state of affairs. All need a complete revamp which I am sure Nitish government is all set out for. Wish the very best to him and the people of Bihar. - Neeraj Kumar

The complete text and comment shows how much divided we are on such an important matter. It also manifests our own greed. While the upper caste wants to keep the whole cake open for grab, the lower caste wants minimum confirmed share. Both of them are concerned about their share of cake only and not about India as some of them have tried to put.

What is the solution then? Ideally there must not be any reservation whatever the basis. However, if at all there has to be some, it should be on the basis of economic backwardness and not caste. Tell me why an SC or ST collector's son should be given reservation? Collector Saheb himself has enjoyed the benefit of reservation, must have put his son in good school, now why his son should be given preference? We don't have any convincing logic. Reservation on the basis of economic backwardness may be considered, that too for one generation only. We will have to get rid of these vote catching tricks of our political parties.

Some of the readers have commented in bad language and have become too personal. Please don't do that. PD is a very good forum for us where we have been discussing some very important issues. We should not expect others to blindly agree to whatever we say. We have our own views, others have their own. If you are so convinced come out with your logic and prove it. Don't use bad language. Every day we boast of being Bihari in our communication with others. Does a good Bihari behave like this? Certainly not.

One last request to Mr. Editor, please ensure that such languages are not entertained. You may even blacklist such commentators refusing to publish their views in future. - Anjum Parwej - Dec. 24, 2005

This is in reference to Mr. Chaubey's letter of Dec. 20 and all the fireworks that have been going with it. I'm surprised that Mr. Chaubey has been lured into meaningless "point-counterpoint" discussions with Mr/(s) Nidhi Singh. I fully agree with the fourth and a part of the fifth paragraphs of Mr. Chaubey's letter of Dec. 20th and I would ask every one to read those parts of his letter once again. There is no color to those words and we truly need to focus on them.

We need a good working solution, nay, a process that can uplift the ECONOMICALLY DEPRESSED. We need a process that begins to touch the grass root of our society, a process that reaches our poor and forgotten.

No "Charwaha Vishwavidyalaya" cannot do it. That was a gimmick and remained so for fifteen years.

How do we reach the masses, how do we uplift them, expose them so that they become the core strength of Bihar? Definitely not by reservation.

In India I always felt like a dalit - short, dark complexioned, poor and a Bihari. But I did all right because the process existed that did not stop me from rising up and becoming successful there and now here too.

We must continue to provide the opportunity - through education, exposure, persuasion, whatever. Don't snuff it. RESERVATION will. It will only breed "Rangdari, nepotism and hooliganism", no civility. Civility and desire to become a true servant of the people comes only through education and exposure and processes that tend to these attributes in a human being must be implemented and nourished.

Look at India today and even of yester years. India's current President, the Prime Minister and a whole host of people who are successful and well accomplished today did not come through any RESERVATION Quota. They came up on their OWN MERIT.

Let us strengthen the processes that cultivate merit that is hidden in all of us. RESERVATION weakens that process!

Please stop these futile discussions because we'll never know or should care about "why and who started the MAHABHARAT". - Rabindra Sinha, Pittsburgh, USA - Dec. 24, 2005
 

Editor's Note: This debate has obviously generated a lot of heat by touching the nerves of a lot of people. Unfortunately, some of the comments are becoming too personal now with more and more abuse being hurled at people holding opposing views. Besides 30 something comments appearing on this page, we had to leave out over a dozen other comments that we felt were way out of line and fit in the criterion of 'below the belt'. Some of you who have been with us for 3-4 years will recall that initially PatnaDaily.Com was very reluctant to have any type of forum on this site. Even now we continue to get requests to have 'bulletin board' where our visitors could discuss issues on a wide range of subjects. We took a decision long time ago not to have a 'free-for-all' message board for this very reason. When in a moderated environment like the Readers Write section people can become so hostile, imagine what would happen when your comments were published instantly with the push of the 'Submit' button! Internet is full of such message boards and like you, we also surf the web to see what's going on out there and majority of what we see on the Web, don't impress us at all. We wouldn't want our young children to read these messages and we wouldn't want PatnaDaily.Com to turn into one of these sites. We request you to please exercise restrain in your language. This Readers Write section is a very alive section of PD; let's keep it interesting, informative, and thought provoking without resorting to name-callings, directly or indirectly. Thanks for your cooperation and let's hope for a better Bihar in the coming new year. Have a very safe and happy holidays. Dec. 24, 2005

Discussion on this topic is now closed.