Vande Mataram - Readers Opine

Aug 23, 2006

The ongoing controversy over the singing of Vande Mataram in the country, that too on the eve of commemoration of 100 years of this national song is a matter of national shame for all the Indians, whether the Hindus, the Muslims, Sikhs or Christians. The national song was once a fountain of national and patriotic zeal and enthusiasm by the virtue of which we ultimately attained independence.

The objection of Indian Muslims to singing of the national anthem is not in the interest of the country. - Bhaskaranand Jha Bhaskar, Kolkata

On the issue of singing of 'Vande Mataram' in schools on Sep 7 to commemorate the centenary of the song, I must say that no such attempt should be made. Not to speak of Muslims, as one who left Islam to embrace Christianity, I too cannot bring myself to sing Vande Mataram. Reason? Vande Mataram glorifies idol worship and refers to only Hindu deities but, surprisingly, it does not even once refer to Ram. No wonder Mahatma Gandhi was against people singing the (Hindu) song in public places and functions where non-Hindus would gather! - Omar Luther King, New Delhi

"Vande Mataram" translates to "I pray to you, my mother". The language is Sanskrit/Farsi.

We are transitioning to a Lebanon like Secular nation. We divvy up our political office between the various religions of the land. I guess in keeping with this trend, must we not have a Jain Vice President ?! If all are being accommodated, then why not Jains ?

And yes, to appease everyone's sensibilities, should we not add "Ya Allah!" and "Oh Geez!" to the "Hey Ram" (separated by forward slashes) on the Gandhi smarak at Raj Ghat ? After all Gandhi was a symbol of secularism! Yeah! Let's be like Taliban, stick our heads where the sun does not shine and destroy our heritage as they destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Should we not replace "Satyameva Jayate" by "Sach ki yakeenan Fatah hoti hai" ? Will that Arabize it enough to appease those who want Vande Mataram replaced?

Yes, let's sanitize our Government. Why don't we replace half of Hindi words in the dictionary with Arabic words?!

I have a better solution. Why don't we give all (not just half) of all those who want to change our institutions like this to the Sheikhdom to Saudi Arabia? I hear that the Arab sheikhs like to hang South Asians under their camels during camel races. They also put them to other uses, that I do not wish to elaborate on here. Yes! Let's give them away. - Aarcee - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr. King you proved your ignorance again. where in Vande matram, there is idol/hindu god worship? Have you tried to go through it any time or just following the halla-bolo of some maulavi or church's father? It asks you to worship/love (whatever you take it) your country just like your mother. Vande-- admire/respect/worship, matram-- mother or better, Vande Mataram' (meaning: I bow to thee, Mother).

The following is the text of the first stanza of the Vande Mataram song: Vande Mataram, Sujalam, suphalam, malayajasshitatalam, Sasyashyamalaam, mataram, Shubhrajyotsana pulakitayaminim, Phullakusumita drumadala shobhinim, Suhasininm sumadhura bhasininm, Sukhadam, vardam, Mataram!

The English translation of the stanza by Sri Aurobindo is:

I bow to thee, Mother,
richly-watered, richly-fruited
cool with the winds of the
south,
dark with the crops of the
harvests,
The Mother!
Her nights rejoicing in the
glory of the moonlight
her lands clothed beautifully
with her trees in
flowering bloom
sweet of laughter, sweet of
speech
The Mother, giver of boons,
giver of bliss!

Now where on the earth there is idol worship/Hindu god worship? You know Mr King, you are totally confused, and ignorant. And I am sure one day you will become Hindu (complete the full circle, as told by Arcee in an earlier article), as it is sanatan dharma, in which everybody gets born then you people categorise him/her as Muslim or Christian by doing khatna/circumcision or so. Therefore I will suggest, go do some soul searching first before poking your fingers into everything. - Sanoj Kumar - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr. King, you show your ignorance about India and Indian culture. Someone who is so confused that he first changes from Islam to Christianity and then had the bravado to live in India, a Hindu rashtra (Yes, India IS a Hindu Rashtra, just like Pakistan and other Middle East countries are Islamic nations), and yet abuse its national anthem. A stronger peddler of another religion will soon come to you and change you into anything because you don't have what it takes to be a truly religious person. You, like most Christian missionaries, are a charlatan and are only concerned with one thing - converting non-Christians into Christians. You, like other depraved missionaries, have only one goal - to destroy other religions and convert everyone into Christians. Shame on you and your religion.

If you don't like our national anthem, I suggest you leave India and live in a country that believes in what you believe in. Nobody is forcing you to live in a nation dominated by Hindus. For your information, we Hindus are quite happy and content with our religion. Do us a favor and stop your propaganda. People like you give bad name to Christianity.

(Now I await a lecture from Mr. King: "Jesus told us to be forgiving so I forgive you Mr. Biswas..."). It's an old trick and we know all about your nefarious schemes and modus operandi, Mr. King. Go to some poor, illiterate, ignorant African country and run your scam. You may have better luck there. - Ajoy Biswas - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr Sanoj Kumar asked : where in Vande matram, there is idol/Hindu god worship? He seems to want the esteemed readers of PD to believe that Vande Mataram does not refer to any religion and that it neither has any relation with idol worship.

Please let me explain that the song has five stanzas. Of these the third stanza refers to 'Thy dreadful name', evidently, a reference to the Goddess Kali. The fourth stanza is in the same vein: 'Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen, with her hands that strike and her swords of sheen'.

Needless to reiterate that the song under review is essentially a religious homage to the country conceived as a deity, which makes the song a form of Hindu worship. The motherland is conceived as the Goddess Kali, the source of all power and glory. In the context of the song it can be clearly stated that the land of Bengal, and by extension the entire India, became identified with the female aspect of Hindu deity, and the result was a concept of divine Motherland. How secular is such a song, my friend? - Omar Luther King - Aug. 24, 2006

You are right, Mr. Ajoy Biswas. I was about to say, "Jesus told us to be forgiving so I forgive you, Mr. Biswas”. But I will not say that to you as it might offend you. Let me, however, enlighten you on certain Indian constitutional points.

India is ‘Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democratic Republic’. The precise sense in which the word secular is used is clarified by the corresponding term ‘pantha nirpeksha’ (denominationally neutral) in the Hindi version of the document.

All the freedoms and rights conferred by Articles 25-30 were made “subject to public order, morality and health”. Not only that: they are to be exercised in a manner that is progressive in spirit. Clause 2(b) of Article 25 provides for state intervention within the framework of the said article to promote ‘social welfare and reform’, and to throw open “Hindu religious institutions of a public charter to all classes and sections of Hindus”. Read together, Articles 25 and 26 put public interest above the claims of freedom of religion.

Moreover, since all the fundamental rights must be read together, nothing may be claimed in terms of freedom of religion that would deny or abridge any other fundamental right. Thus, human sacrifice cannot be claimed as essential to any community’s religious practice since Article 21 guarantees “protection of life and personal liberty”. Similarly, the dedication of any girl or woman to a temple deity (as a devadasi, for example), who is then compelled to engage in sexual intercourse with specified men, cannot be claimed as a religious right as it would violate Article 23, which prohibits “traffic in human beings”.

Finally, a word on conversion. Gandhi argued with absolute conviction that, while the idea of free choice of religion by the individual should be an inalienable right, the effort to convert or reclaim him or her could only come from someone who is an alien to the true essence of religion. “If conversion is the work of god”, he asked with characteristic directness, “why should that work be taken away from him?” - Omar Luther King - Aug. 24, 2006

I believe that terming "vande mataram" as against the religion is too narrow minded a point of view. One should see the poetic meaning of the song rather than literal translation.

But once again, those who oppose this hardly think this way. One can see the simile in another political parties trying to ban Valentines Day or movie shows. It all boils down to politics, if these issues were not there then these political entities will lose their status and value.

What should matter to us as a Bihari or Indian is to respect our togetherness. - Saifuddin Ahmad - Aug. 24, 2006

While commenting on this issue we all must be sensitive to others' feelings. People are attacking Mr. King for his reservation to the singing of Vande Matram; which is not fair. We must learn to respect others' feelings. We will have to forget our internal bickering on small issues in order to achieve larger goals. We are free to air our opinion but there is no harm in being civilized and exercising restraints.

As ARCEE has roughly translated "Vande Mataram" translates to "I pray to you, my mother".

As a Muslim I also find this un-acceptable. Try to understand this with an open mind. Prayer is offered to the creator not the creation. God is the creator and so we pray to Him. While mother is a creation, so no pray to her.

We love, respect, adore our own mother and mother India but we can't pray to her. We are ready to defend India in all possible manner, we are ready to lay our life for India. But we can't pray to her.

As regards ARCEE's other comments there is no need to translate anything and throw a part of population out of India. It is his ignorance as he has not read history well and doesn't know the contributions of other communities in our freedom struggle. He also doesn't understand the implications of his comments. Still we have to read him as he has the right to put his opinion. We will do better by ignoring comments from this kind of dirty and dividing minds.

I saw on SAHARA TV that an injection named OXYTOCIN is being given to young girls of 6-7 years in Agra to develop their sexual organs and desires so that they start catering to customers at younger age. I have not heard these things happening in Gulf countries. So we should better do some introspection before commenting on others.

My apologies if I have hurt your feelings. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr Omar, how about treating Vande Mataram as worshiping your mother, mother land or even Mother Mary? Does God has a problem if one worships his mother? At the same time comments from people like Aarcee, Sanoj Kumar, Ajoy Biswas are disgusting. People have left Hinduism for Buddhism, Islam, Jainism, Sikhism and Christianity because Hinduism is a castiest/tribal/clannish religion that kills the aspirations, hopes and future of majority of Indian citizens right at their birth by calling them SC/ST/Backward. Right wing nuts who are blind or have malicious intent thinking that they own all the people of India might deny this but it's a matter of time before the nation of India awakens to the truth. Caste system is the key reason that is killing Hinduism, accept this fact and we might take the next step of finding a solution. - Rajendra Kumar - Aug. 24, 2006

It is really hurtful as an Indian that some people are seeing the religious propaganda in such a patriotic song. To me this song is a passionate song not because I am a Hindu, but because I am an Indian. I would sing from the top of my lungs if there is any patriotic song in Urdu, English or any other language of the world used by our freedom fighters. This song is about patriotism not about religion, I think we should understand this. The funny part is that nobody would even have read this but they would criticize this till their last drop of blood. It can only happen in India. Some of us may live in India but would feel ashamed to be Indian, would have a scant respect for even Indian patriotic songs and to top it off, we have some politicians who would appease such people just because it would buy them some votes. I am afraid if all Indians do not rise above political, religious and personal bias to show respect to Indian history and freedom struggle, the country would not last longer. Whatever we have forget about Indian freedom struggles, its birth pangs is already alarming now there are some people in this country would have started rejecting some of the very patriotic songs which used to rouse our fore-fathers so much so that they wouldn't mind standing up to British guns.

Mr. King you are nothing but a virus who only has one goal in this life. To propagate inside each and everybody. You just want to see everyone like you. Do not be so obsessed with after-life so much so that you forget how to live in the present life. - Ravindra Kumar - Aug. 24, 2006

I hope Mr Omar Luther King backs off from his religion spreading spree or his concept of intolerant secularism. I will hold the same view when he is Omar Luther King Singh tomorrow. Religion is too deep seated sacred thing in an individual for others to mess around with. As regards secularism, the majority Hindus have shown great tolerance by making all minority feel at home and empowered in this country by putting them on the highest pedestals of power for decades now. Which other country on this planet has a similar record? Yet we have discontented people like Mr Omar Luther King preaching secularism to us. We have happily adopted so many words from Urdu and Arabic into our language. Many of us have grown up reciting Christian prayers everyday in missionary schools. Are you ashamed to articulate two names of Hindu Gods? I think you should be exported to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to learn some secularism. No? Which other country will respect your brand of secularism? People like you will sit here and keep pinching the majority with foolish words and actions. When it reacts you start crying out aloud that the minority has been attacked. Should intolerance be the virtue of the minority only? As minority you will be fanatically intolerant and you expect the majority to to be super-tolerant to your fanatical intolerance? There are people on the other side of the line too. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr King is asking me to explain about this part of song. "Please let me explain that the song has five stanzas. Of these the third stanza refers to 'Thy dreadful name', evidently, a reference to the Goddess Kali. The fourth stanza is in the same vein: 'Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen, with her hands that strike and her swords of sheen'.”

For your kind information, only the first two stanzas have been incorporated in the national song. Your objection starts from third stanza. So the government and our esteemed constituent assembly members had taken care of your sentiments. Therefore, read only the first two stanzas, which is being sung in any gathering and recognized as a national song. - Sanoj Kumar - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr Anjum Parvej, I have admired your views on so many topics. But here I have an objection. You are saying that bowing/praying before your mother is a 'gunah' in islam. You will pray for the creator only. Well, I have seen some Muslims praying before their ancestors in KABRAGAH. I have seen them bowing their heads in front of their ancestors. If they can do that then what is the harm in doing it for your mother/motherland? Or you people are so intolerant? At least not you! - Sanoj Kumar - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr. King, you don't have any problem throwing the word 'Jesus' in each sentence while talking to a Hindu but God forbid if the Hindus talk about Kali and Durga. It offends you to no extent. I have said it before and will say it again. Your belief in your religion is temporary. You change religion like we change underwear. Tomorrow a new 'saint' will come your way and you will be more than willing to dump Christ that you currently call your god and savior.

Our 'secular' leaders have already made provisions for 'secularists' like you by omitting three paragraphs from the song. Now you want it completely banished. How is this for a new national anthem for India: "Our father who art in heaven..." That should make you happy, shouldn't it? Why don't you come clean and tell the folks here your real agenda? Not that we don't understand your real agenda; it'll just be for your own cleansing sake!

As for Mr. Rajendra Kumar, if Hinduism is so bad, when do you plan to officially abandon it? I am sure the church of Mr. King would be more than willing to accommodate you. Oh wait, you are an atheist and atheists are the most intellectual persons in the world. Sorry I forgot about it. - Ajoy Biswas - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr. King, I studied in a missionary school and for a decade, barring holidays, every single day I stood along with all the other kids of my school saying prayers made by Christians. Was I wrong? Are all the other kids of my school and so many other missionary schools across the country wrong in saying such prayers? While praying all I was conscious of was that I was praying to God who has not empowered our brains to know His shape, size, form or religion. Was I wrong?

Mr. Saifuddin Ahmad is a Muslim please read his views. It is the tolerance and goodness in people like him that we exist as one society. There is no end to being narrow minded and intolerant. That road leads straight to hell. Someone rightly called you a virus. People like you make healthy societies sick. Mr. King every religion teaches tolerance. You are not religious. You are an imposter - politician (wolf) in the garb of a priest (sheep).

I have a suggestion for Mr. King, and all those who find it so difficult to accept the patriotic song in it's spirit and who have to hang to each word and squeeze out divisive filth from them. I request them to go and learn secularism from their own kids. Children are the very own people of the Hindu-Muslim-Christian etc etc God. They will not hesitate to salute any God. They are pure people till their minds are poisoned by people like Mr. King who talk and behave as if they have met the only God in existence and they know what is His religion. Mr. King, do the Gods of various faiths fight with each other in heaven? If you say they do they are no better than us and do not deserve our reverence. If they do not why should we?

We can expose you Mr. King with very simple questions. Back off Mr. King. Shut your shop of intolerance and hatred. In case you choose to reply, do not write blah, blah, please answer my questions. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 24, 2006

It is interesting to see that after a hiatus, activity has picked up in the Reader's Write column.

Someone just outdid me. To find an analogy between someone who lives in India and hates her traditions, I was thinking of "Ek to Karela, upar se Neem charaha." But the word "Virus" got me thinking. Are such people viruses?

I guess not. They are more like cancer cells. They grow within your body. In fact, they are descended from the cells of your body. They have undergone a change in their coding and have rebelled against the body. They continue to suck sustenance from the body, but their agenda becomes to kill the body itself. They stop obeying the laws with which the body governs itself and they create more of themselves and invade every part of the body. The immune system gets fooled by their appearance and they grow, feed off and ultimately kill the body - and themselves in the process. - Aarcee - Aug. 24, 2006

It sounds like a mini religious war going on over here! Cool down, you so called intellectual writers! My polite message to some of you who are writing and re-writing your thoughts of garbage on this forum as if you don't know (or don't want to accept) the power of 'Vande Mataram' song, you should simply try to understand it first. This song has been a highest rated motivational song as part of India's freedom movement. The fruit of freedom you are enjoying today. The great people like Gandhi, Bose, Nehru, Dr. Prasad or even Jinna never complained about this song. Who are we then? Hard to believe that you folks are fighting on the words used in Vande Mataram song. I feel like few jerks were going to argue Ustad Bismillah Khan not to play Shehnai in Vishwanath temple because he was a Muslim and Shehnai is synonymous to him and as an answer get slapped by him. I hope you folks get it.

Now stop vomiting your personal frustration on this forum. - Naren Singh - Aug. 24, 2006

Mr. Singh,

That's exactly what the forum lacked so far. A high pedestal principal scolding and lecturing two groups of high school students about being so frivolous and ignorant in debate. You very well seem to be familiar with the power of this motivational song, then would you see when this symbol among many of our freedom fighters passion, "rang de basanti" attitude of all the freedom martyrs is being degraded and off-handed dismissed as a religious propaganda. Even though the two stanzas of this song does not contain any reference to Hindu Gods and Goddesses, it is still being put aside as nothing but a religious propaganda. It hurts me as an Indian really badly. Whenever I read and sing this song, my chest fills with pride for the nation and want to sacrifice everything for the motherland. I really wonder what it means to love India and being an Indian? I am not asking or forcing anyone to join me in this chorus for the song. But I hoped at least whole India would appreciate the power and value of this historic song. If we start destroying our history, then what's next? Jan Gana Mana or Satyamev Jayte? Where does it stop? Have all Indians decided that lets kill and destroy India in the name of religion? If religion is not enough then may be caste divides, Shia-Sunni divide and so many multitude of problems that we face in India? I mean these are the songs that made India and helped in its birth. How can we do cheap politics and let our personal and religious bias come into respecting it. I am not being frivolous Mr. Singh. I am hurt as an Indian everyday with so many things like today the shameful fight our politicians in Lok Sabha but Vande Mataram is the last thing I expected to be disgraced.

To teach you a bit of history, it was the objection of Jinnah that the last three stanzas were removed from this song when it became official. But well by that time, he was already championing the cause of Pakistan. You be the judge now then. - Ravindra Kumar - Aug. 25, 2006

It appears that the question is no longer ‘To sing or not to sing Vande Mataram’ but to which community one belongs – minority or majority? Most of the PD readers seem to imagine that any government that does not recognize the demands of the religious majority is undemocratic. This is a naïve understanding of democracy that opens the way for tyranny of the majority. Given the history of the recent VHP/BJP movements, the non-Hindu minority groups are rightly suspicious.

In such a scenario, the government should encourage public dialogue and debate amongst the members of the various religious communities and make policies on the basis of the outcome of the debates. - Omar Luther King - Aug. 25, 2006

I have no desire to join this War of Words, as it will only lead us to love our co-religionists and hate them who do not belong to our community, caste, creed and religion. Before I quit I would like to put on record that I am proud of India, which is one of the few nations of the world that gives its citizens the liberty to know, to think, to believe and to share, without fear or favour with one and all, the joy of salvation or the saving knowledge of Christ. Having left my ancestral religion, I joyfully exercise the constitutional right to practice my newfound religion and to preach Christ to non-Christians.

Before I am misunderstood as taking advantage of this Reader's Write Forum for fulfilling my religious agenda, I quit. I love my India. I will die for my India but I refuse to worship Mother India by singing Vande Mataram because I am a One-God believer and worshipper. - Omar Luther King - Aug. 25, 2006

It is all about being broad minded, friendly and adjusting Mr. King. The same as in a family. Unfortunately, a few in the minority, like you, are intolerant and divisive. You have objection to everything that is generally perceived as good and you try to spread your poison to others. In India the majority has already shown how broad minded, friendly and adjusting it can be. There are no parallels in the world. Can you name one country in this big, wide world with minority representation like in India? Most of the minority have reacted positively to the warmth shown. It is a few perpetually disgruntled people like you who go around with microscopes and magnifying glasses trying to find and fuel discord.

You stoop even to the level of criticizing a patriotic song for a foolish reason. If others in this country start behaving like you many Bollywood songs and films would be banned from being played / shown in public as they have the name of your God in them. Bollywood would be sanitized of all the so many various Khans and then all other areas would follow. You want that? It is all about being broad minded, friendly and adjusting Mr. King.

We are still talking of the song. Do not try to broaden the scope of the discussion, throw dust in the air and sneak out. Let us understand your view point. Please answer the questions I asked. Then I will ask some more.

The question IS larger than the song and about to which community you belong. The community of broad minded, friendly, adjusting people or the community of peddlers of hatred and intolerance who create hatred and run while the poor man on the street faces the consequences. You do not represent the Christians or the Muslims. You represent a small bunch of opportunistic, trouble makers. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 25, 2006

Dear friends, this article has already elicited 20 comments as of this moment and I'm sure the number is set to rise. While the arguments for and against have been civil so far, and keeping in mind the caution by the editor earlier this year, it would be wise to focus our energies on more pressing issues of the day. Thank you. - Dr Ignatius Joseph Malacca Malaysia - Aug. 25, 2006

I can’t agree more with Dr Ignatius. Let us discuss something more important. Please participate with the same fervor on other topics as well. There are many topics which can be discussed without inviting nonsense. - Kumod Jha - Aug. 25, 2006

The wise moderators, whose contribution to this discussion has been zero, have moved in. They want to change the channel. Problems are not solved by changing channels. People like Mr. King are dangerous for our society. They are like termite - they operate in the dark. Now when I have turned the lights on, he wants to escape, true termite style. When at home you see termite do you cover it back again and change the channel because it is ugly and start watching Bay Watch? I wanted to show the world exactly how termites operate to make the once truly secular society of India hollow. Moderators you can go channel surfing to comedy channels, but if you all have taken serious note of the repercussions the intolerance exhibited by Mr King and his likes brings on our society, my objective has been served. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 25, 2006

Mr. Rajendra Kumar asked: “Does God has (sic) a problem if one worships his mother?”

He needs to be told that our God does have a big problem. In the ninth verse of the fifth chapter of Deuteronomy in the Bible it is written thus: “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God….”- Omar Luther King - Aug. 26, 2006

PatnaDaily is a forum accessed by educated people to share their views. But it is disgusting to see when educated people start attacking a person (and even his/her religion) if he chooses to disagree with others. When one of the readers Mr. Omar Luther King expressed that his understanding of his religion and the song stops him to sing the song "Vande Mataram", one of the readers brought in the issue of majority's tolerance and minorities' intolerance and even went to the extent of "exporting" Mr. King to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. I would ask Mr. "exporter" (any way, do you hold any license for exporting Human being?) that if I don't sing the song (for whatever reason), which country you would export me to? What word or sentence of Mr. King mad(e) you to conclude that he is intolerant to you and your way of worshiping motherland? Did he ask you to stop singing "Vande mataram"? Has he criticized the song itself? NO. He has simply disagreed with the way you want to express your love for the country. You want to worship and he is ready to die for the nation, what is the difference? But you are trying to bully him that not just the undying love for the nation is sufficient but it has to be expressed exactly in the way you want. If some agrees then you will certify and say that even though he is a Muslim he is a patriot. Did not someone called our current President as Hindu because he recites Veda and studies Geeta? Message is simple - being a non-Hindu leaves a big room to doubt on your integrity with the nation.

In fact, nationalism and patriotism are the tools most abused by fascist all over the world. Fascism is : if you don't agree with me, I will kill (or export) you. Don't we hear ""Bharat main agar rahna hai to Vande Mataram kehna hoga"? Nahi.n to kya hoga, you know. Needless to mention whose dictat it is? Same groups and people have been trying to pit this song even against our national anthem by demanding to replace the national anthem "Jana gana mana.." with "vande mataram". (Imagine if some other group demands to replace national anthem by "saare jaha.n se...") It is not irrelevant to mention that absolutely no reference there to "vande mataram" (what to talk of singing it) in the pre-independence documents/literatures published by RSS. Vande Mataram as a term does not appear in the writings of KB Hedgewar and MS Golwalkar either. And after Independence the same gang wants to use this song to beat Muslims with. Is it difficult to understand the agenda behind the issue? Spread hatred among people. Someone has mentioned that the song has been highest rated motivational song during our freedom struggle but I would remind you all that this song failed to motivate one famous person of our era, Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

A high profile committee on Vande Mataram [The Congress Working Committee (CWC) after long deliberations at Wardha and Bombay appointed a committee consisting of Jawaharlal Nehru (then president of the Congress), Mahatma Gandhi, Abul Kalam Azad and Subhash Chandra Bose to look into the song] issued a historic statement on October 28, 1937 with the aim to resolve the controversy - "wherever the Vande Matraram is sung at national gatherings only the first two stanzas should be sung, with perfect freedom to the organizers to sing any other song of an unobjectionable character, in addition to, or in the place of, the Vande Matraram song." - Prabhat Sinha, Noida - 26th August, 2006

Dear Sanoj Ji, thank you very much for admiring my views on topics discussed at PD Forum. I have similar sentiments for you and all others who write here and enlighten us on various issues.

I am not intolerant Sanoj Ji. I am just trying to explain the issue in its proper perspective. Essence of Islam is "MONOTHEISM". We believe that there is only one God and all praise and prayers are for Him only. If we share this with any other then it is called "SHIRQ" meaning making somebody partner of God. This is not permitted in Islam and is the biggest sin which will not be forgiven by God on the Day of Judgment. And therefore, we have strong reservation against this particular song.

Let me also tell you that any song in itself is not important. Important thing is our unity and our resolve towards secularism.

Unfortunately this has been made majority versus minority issue. Some of the contents are really atrocious. Majority have started feeling they are doing a favor to Minority by letting them live in India………………dangerous sign. Stop it here and now.

About your comments seeing some Muslims praying in front of KABRGAH, this is once again not permitted in Islam. Even going to Ajmer and praying there is wrong. But as you have lots of people believing Shankar Bhagwan is really drinking milk, we also have innocent un-educated people doing all this kind of things.

This is direct result of Parasitic Religious and Social Leadership that we have in our country. They feed on the problems we face in our life and take advantage of our innocence. This is existing in both the communities. We call ourselves educated and progressive. Still we fall in their trap and don't behave any differently. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 26, 2006

Mr. Omar Luther King, you are a trouble maker! You should know that even in secular nations like the US, where the Founding Fathers were clearly against organized religion, Christian symbolism is ubiquitous. From the Ten Commandments in the US Supreme Court premises to offering a prayer in the Congress before any session, it is all there. And by the way, you ask any Congressman he will tell you that the God as referred to in that prayer is the Judeo-Christian god and not the Universal god that we would like to refer to.

As a Christian, you have used ignoramus Christians' usual whipping horse of "idol worship" as the reason for not singing Vande Mataram. Pray tell me where is idol worship is mentioned in the poem? Also, WHAT IS WRONG WITH IDOL WORSHIP? If Hindus worship a statue of Lakshmi it is derogatorily called idol worship, while if Christians pray to an inanimate cross or an idol of Madonna and child, it is called a statue and glorified. Idol worship is mentioned in the Ten Commandments in a completely different context, but the English during Raj used it diabolically to vilify Hinduism and convert people. And I can tell you that the illiterate Indians like the tribals you convert, don't (and cannot) ask these questions!!!!

Let me tell you one thing -- while Hinduism has many flaws, it is the most holistic religion out there!! I have read the Bible, lived among Christians, debated on their religion and all that, I can tell you that most of the time, they don't know a damn about other religions!! Christian dogmas, particularly salvation through Christ, cannot stand the test of rigorous analysis and rationale. That you have chosen to be brain-washed by it and convert, is your privilege -- in secular India!!! - Natarajan Iyer, Bangalore - Aug. 26, 2006

Mr Omar since you are comfortable with the jealous nature of God I don't think I or anyone else has the right to preach you. I am not comfortable with a God who is jealous but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. To me, the moment The God possesses a specific nature/characteristic (Jealousy), He loses being infinite, almighty and The One with limitless greatness. Heck, I cannot even stand jealous people but then it's just me. But just because I don't do it I don't expect people to stop being literal.

You had mentioned in the past that your father is a famous Indian freedom fighter from Assam, how many people who are passing racist comments against you can claim the same? But they are ready to throw you out of India literally for a song! On the other hand, I am curious if your freedom fighter father had an objection against singing Vande Mataram. Hopefully you will give a thought to this.

I love and respect Vande Mataram more than Jana Gana Mana (which was a sycophant (makkhan lagane waala) song for the British Emperor but was subsequently give a spin) but that does not give me the right to bully you to sing my favourite song.

I admire your courage to stand strong against vitriolic criticism. Hopefully you, me and all of us can show the same courage not just while defending our religion, caste or language but also in defending truth, justice, peace, tolerance and other's right. Then only can we collectively prosper.

I know plenty of us are very good people and we are passing nasty comments as a part of our 'email' personality and not overall personality. I am sure if we were discussing face to face we will all be more civil to each other. We cannot help being emotional, after all we are all from India and being Bihari blood we are slightly rustic too (which is a good thing). - Som Vishwakarma - Aug. 26, 2006

Who says majority have started feeling they are doing a favor to Minority by letting them live in India. Do not twist words and contort ideas.

I have to quote the following lines I wrote earlier for you :

"Mr. Saifuddin Ahmad is a Muslim please read his views. It is the tolerance and goodness in people like him that we exist as one society".

"Can you name one country in this big, wide world with minority representation like in India? Most of the minority have reacted positively to the warmth shown. It is a few perpetually disgruntled people like you who go around with microscopes and magnifying glasses trying to find and fuel discord."

"Do the Gods of various faiths fight with each other in heaven? If you say they do they are no better than us and do not deserve our reverence. If they do not why should we?"

"The question IS larger than the song and about to which community you belong. The community of broad minded, friendly, adjusting people or the community of peddlers of hatred and intolerance who create hatred and run while the poor man on the street faces the consequences. You do not represent the Christians or the Muslims. You represent a small bunch of opportunistic, trouble makers."

Do the above lines mean majority have started feeling they are doing a favor to Minority by letting them live in India? I also wrote that people should focus on the spirit behind words and not hang to each word and squeeze out divisive filth from them. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 26, 2006

Mr. Rajesh Chaubey,

Let me show you the mirror and let the people on this forum know your true colour as now you deserved to be attacked as person for you taking the lead to attack a person and his religious identity (just because he disagreed with you). I would quote you from the comment(s) you have made on this issue of "Vande Mataram". Hope you won't behave like a termite, will you?

You have written (mind that I will not quote you as per my convenience as you have quoted yourself selectively in your latest comment) :-

In your first comment, you say "As regards secularism, the majority Hindus have shown great tolerance by making all minority feel at home and empowered in this country by putting them on the highest pedestals of power for decades now. Which other country on this planet has a similar record? Yet we have discontented people like Mr Omar Luther King preaching secularism to us."

My question is -

How do you know that Mr. King is a discontented person? Or as he belongs to non-Hindu religion, he has forfeited his right to be discontented? Don't you say that minorities feel at home and have reached to the highest pedestal of power in this country BECAUSE majority Hindus have shown great tolerance to them? Is it not a favor by Hindus to all other non-Hindus? Mr. Chaubey, let me tell you and all that Mr. King (or anybody else) feels at home in this country just because he belongs to this nation and nothing else. This country is yours as Mr. King's, nothing more nothing less. And Mr. King has all the rights (as you have) to preach on any subject including secularism. Secularism is not a favor by Hindus to other non-Hindus, it is the key of our nation called India. Secularism may be a most abused word by our greedy politicians but you cannot throw the baby with the bath water.

You go on saying to the extent "We have happily adopted so many words from Urdu and Arabic into our language".

My question is - Why are you talking about Urdu and Arabic only? What do you mean by "our" language?

Most of the today's languages have adopted many words from many other languages. But you are drawing a parallel between Hindi adopting Urdu and Hindus adopting Muslims. Please let us know what else you mean by your above sentence. Muslims of Bangladesh speak Bangla, are they doing any favor to anybody. Language is much more related to region rather than religion.

You write "Many of us have grown up reciting Christian prayers everyday in missionary schools. Are you ashamed to articulate two names of Hindu Gods? I think you should be exported to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to learn some secularism. No?"

Mr. Chaubey, you went to missionary school, not to recite Christian prayers but to get better education so that you would compete in the global world to earn rozi-roti. You were not doing any favor to Christians. Why did not you go to schools run by RSS? And why Mr. King should be exported to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Are these two countries secular? Did anybody ask you to go to Nepal?

Mr. Chaubey, you have concluded your first comment by saying "Should intolerance be the virtue of the minority only? As minority you will be fanatically intolerant and you expect the majority to to be super-tolerant to your fanatical intolerance? There are people on the other side of the line too." Please let me know which "minority" you are talking about? Given the above venoms spitted by you, why should I not mean this "minority" as religious minority?

In the end, let me tell you that people like you are the termites who now have the illusion that the nation have been given to you termites to own it to eat it. Let me tell you that don't be in the illusion of owning this nation.

We all live in this nation that is termite-proof, and termites are at the most irritants.

"mera juta hai japani, mera patloon englishtani, sar pe laal topi roosi, fir bhi dil hai Hindustani…"

"Nikal pade hai.n khuli sadak pe ~~ apna seena taane, apna seena taane~~~~" - Prabhat Sinha, Noida - Aug. 27, 2006

Problem here on this forum is that we don't discuss. We just go for all out attack on the views we don't agree with. One reader writes something and we all start preaching and attacking him for his writings. We don't try to understand what he is trying to say. We all start demonstrating that our love for India is greater than yours. I admit I am not comfortable with singing this song. Does that reduce my love for India? Does that make my love inferior than others'?

And yes, indirectly impression has been made that majority are doing a favor to minority by letting them live in India. Gentlemen have talked about throwing people out of India, exporting them to some sheikhdom and African Countries.

I have a very simple question which I want to ask in theth Bihari style – "ye mulk tere baap ka hai kya? Aur agar tere baap ka hai to mere baap ka bhi hai". - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 27, 2006

After all that Prabhat Sinha of Noida wrote, there should have been nothing left to write on the subject under discussion. Alas, everybody has his own axe to grind and he does that in such a forum (courtesy: PatnaDaily.Com) by giving vent to his feelings instead of keeping to the point raised in the discussion.

It is disappointing that the PD readers have not reacted adequately to the main contention of my view on Vande Mataram: that the so-called educated, progressive and liberal Hindus have not come forward openly against the intolerance and narrow-mindedness preached by the members of their own Sangh Parivar. Needless to conclude here that it is not advisable and indeed unhealthy to insist on 'My religion, right or wrong!' - Omar Luther King - Aug. 27, 2006

Kisi ke baap ka nahin hai is liye India ko bech kar kha jayen or let foreigners take it over. Now that's a great idea!

It's exactly this mentality that allowed Mughals and British to take over India.

This is your definition of secularism. There is no sense of nationalism and some people feel proud about it. It's a fashion these days to be 'open-minded' or what the politicians term as 'secular' and in order to be 'open-minded' or 'secular', it is perfectly okay to rape your Bharat Mata or sell off the country to foreigners!

Glad to realize that India ka koi mai-baap nahin hai.

For some of you people's information, no one has any objection to what Mr. King believes in. If he believes in Jesus, it's his prerogative. No one has any problem with that. It's his obsession with converting every Hindu into a Christian and his frequent attempt to shove Christianity down the throat of non-Christians that ticks many people including yours truly. I would love to see Hindus going all out to convert (by hook or by crook) all Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs into Hindus. Then we will see an outcry by these so-called 'secular' people that will make the Independence struggle look like a skirmish between Paswan and Lalu. But as long as Hindus are being converted by the likes of Mr. King, no one has any problem with it. We all become 'broad-minded'. - Arun Sharma - Aug. 27, 2006

I agree fully with Mr. Anjum Parwej. This is the house of both baaps, yours and ours, and India is our country. That makes us all family, doesn't it? Within a family all members are not exactly similar in nature and some adjustment and compromise has to be made by all. If one member digs his heals and becomes narrow minded and uncompromising the family suffers. That member can ruin the family and others have to show him that he is being unreasonable.

Some people, on this forum, read with a biased mind and understand what they like to understand, not what is written. I will say it again and let there be no confusion about it. There is no difference in people because of the religion they follow. There are good, tolerant, broad minded people in Hindu, Christian and Muslim religions and there are narrow minded, inconsiderate trouble making scoundrels in all of them too. While the good people focus on commonalities to live peacefully with others as one society, the others create divisions and ill feelings by focusing on differences. Again I reiterate that such filthy elements are there in all religions just as there are good, tolerant, broad minded people in all of them.

I feel minor issues, like words in a patriotic song, which was sung by freedom fighters of all religions, must not suddenly become great issue. "Aur bhi bade, bade gum hai Hindustanio ke zindagi me". It is sad to see people making issues out of nothing and the nation, from Parliament, press, to the people, wasting so much time and energy over a non-issue. Who are the people making it a great issue and why? Their ancestors, who fought for the country had no problems singing the song. Were they fools? Or were they wiser, more tolerant and better individuals? Intolerance over minor issues is not in the interest of the Indian society. Intolerance will only make the sadly heterogeneous Indian society further heterogeneous. There will be fights and riots on similar non-issues. Intolerance must be discouraged if we want to see this country prosper with a truly homogenous "Indian" society. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 28, 2006

Unless "Prabhat Sinha" is an alias of "Mr. Omar Luther King", then Mr. King has a good subject to work on. Mr. King might find an eager disciple in Mr. Sinha. It will take little effort on the part of Mr. King (future Mr. Singh?) to dip Prabhat Sinha in water and make him Peter D'Souza.

From this discussions I have come to the conclusion that due to the "enemy within", India has had it! The likes of Prabhat Sinha do not see the gathering storm beyond the Western Border, and the vast sea of intolerant and expansionist regimes stretched beyond. Likes of you will yield India inch by inch and strip it of its secular character. Then you will convert like Mr. King to absolve yourself of any responsibility in the misdeed.

I tried looking but could not find any mention of Dr. Martin Luther King having visited India a few decades ago. Anyway, it is not Dr. King's inspiration in this quaint namesake of his. - Aarcee - Aug. 28, 2006

Omar,

The issue is not liberal Hindus defending the rights of the minorities. It is BECAUSE they defend the rights of the minorities that Christianity is the fastest growing religion in India. It is because of liberal Hindus that you see OBC reservation, you see funds from temple collections being diverted for the maintenance of minority's places of worship!

The problem is that you have NOT cited convincing reasons why ALL Indians should not sing Vande Mataram. You keep harping on bogus and utter nonsensical reasons -- like idol worship is prohibited in the Bible and that your God is jealous etc. I categorically REJECT such god! And I am sure that the true Universal God we refer to, is not like that as described in the Old Testament!! In fact, that was one of the reasons for Protestant movement starting in the 15th century.

At the end of the day, nobody can put a gun to your head to make you sing the song!! But say it so… Don't couch your disinclination in religious arguments. They don't hold any water. - Natarajan Iyer, Bangalore - Aug. 28, 2006

While the PD editor is kind enough to keep the discussion on "Vande Mataram” open, I would like to thank the following persons: Aarcee, Sanoj Kumar, Ajoy Biswas, Saifuddin Ahmad, Anjum Parwej, Rajendra Kumar, Ravindra Kumar, Sanoj Kumar, Rajesh Chaubey, Naren Singh, Prabhat Sinha, Dr Ignatius Joseph, Kumod Jha, Natarajan Iyer, Som Vishwakarma, and Arun Sharma. But for their valuable contributions it would not have been possible for the PD readers to know what makes India, that is, Bharat a great nation and its citizens praiseworthy. - Omar Luther King - Aug. 28, 2006
 

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