Well, this is simply pathetic... Apparently it is all Pakistan's fault, isn't it? If the weather is bad in India, it's Pakistan's fault. If some Indian terrorist does something in India, it's Pakistan's fault. Need I remind you that there are countless insurgencies going on in India which includes Kashmir, Assam etc? It could be anyone in India. Why blame Pakistan only? And have you given any proof to the international community that Pakistan was involved in any way possible?

And it is really sad to see people say that Pakistanis are "envious" of India's progress. We aren't. And it's not like we aren't progressing ourselves. In 2002-2005, Pakistan was the second fastest growing economy in the world, after China (and yes, faster than India). Last year, we grew at a 6.5% (which though lower than India's economic growth, is still very good considering the country suffered from a huge earthquake). Pakistan income per capita is still higher than India's, and poverty has fallen from a massive 33% in 2001 to about 24% today (and the poverty line in Pakistan is higher than India's.. a man considered poor in Pakistan may not be considered poor in India).

Yes, India has made some impressive progress in the years, specially in IT sector. But we do not envy India. - Sohaib - July 30, 2006

Next you will tell me Americans attacked US property on 9/11. Where is the proof? Did you get adequate proof, were you satisfied, did you give the go ahead before they carpet bombed your backyard? The plain truth is they are far away. They can hit you anytime and you do not have anything to hit them back with.

The democratic Indian Government is accountable to the billions of people of India for every paisa it spends. I hope the money Pakistan is making will be largely spent in educating it's citizens. Education is the answer to many problems. People with education can elect good leaders and sustain a healthy democracy. That will bring accountability and end this nuclear brinkmanship. - Rajesh Chaubey - July 30, 2006

Mr. Sohaib's statement is laughable. The entire world knows Pakistan is a terrorist country - it thrives on being the safe paradise for terrorists from all over the world. It is unfortunate that India, by default, became the neighbor of one of the most rogue countries in the world that spells peace as P-I-E-C-E.

You talk about proof. India has provided enough proof to you about Pakistani terrorists infiltrating India and engaging in bomb blasts and other terrorist acts but as Jack Nicholson once said, "you can't handle the truth." That's your prerogative but the entire world knows what is the truth. Your history is full of violence, blasts, explosions, backstabbing, power usurping, and offering shelters to the Daoud Ibrahims and the Osamas of the world while trying to justify their existence in the name of Islam.

We all know there are good and decent people in Pakistan who prefer to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors and other nations of the world while marching on the roads of progress. They would rather discuss cricket and ghazals than LOC and rocket-firing. Our problem is not with people like you Mr. Sohaib, it's your government and your government policies that is designed to favor terrorists and mujahdeens whether you admit it or not.

We also know that India has its own share of domestic terrorists in the name of Naxalites and insurgents in Assam etc, as you have rightly pointed out. However, the major difference between India and Pakistan is: India as a nation neither has nor does promote terrorism as part of its national policy whereas Pakistan does and always has. - Arun Mishra - July 30, 2006

Yes... there are some elements in Pakistan that do wish to create trouble in India, but it is also the other way around. Need I remind you of BLO and countless troubles in Karachi which are commonly believed to be supported by the Indian Intelligence agency (R&AW)?

I am not saying that Pakistan is a country of angels, but that India too has a hand in the troubles we see in South Asia today.

And as a famous saying goes, "One man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter". Pakistan only supports the activities of the Kashmiri freedom fighters. We have asked India countless times to hold a referendum in Kashmir, as to rightfully determine the fate of Kashmir by the people of Kashmir (which is yet to be done). After all, isn't that what forms the basis of democracy?

As far as Nuclear Chauvinism is concerned, what has Pakistan done that other countries haven't? Yes, a Pakistani scientist helped Iran and Libya with their nuclear projects, but haven't the Americans and the British helped Israel out with theirs'?  - Sohaib - July 31, 2006

Mr. Sohaib, it is ironical that someone from Pakistan, which is run by a dictator, talks about democracy in Kashmir. Please bring democracy in your own country first then worry about bringing freedom in other countries.

As you say, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - what you refer to as 'Kashmiri freedom fighters', to us they are terrorists openly backed by Pakistan.

If my memory serves me right, Musharraf was NOT elected by the people of Pakistan. And yet you talk about the need of democracy in other nations!!! You see the irony here Mr. Sohaib?

As for what Americans and British have done in other countries is a topic of another discussion. Right now we are talking about India and Pakistan so let's limit our debate to these two countries.

You talk about India creating trouble in South Asia. Can you elaborate on that? Using your own phrase, do you have any proof for that or are you simply swayed by your state-run propaganda machinery that you call news media? India has been, and is, a country that has promoted peace in the region despite being surrounded by trigger-happy nations like Pakistan and China. We don't go out and promote terrorism or send out terrorists to other countries to carry out our religious and political agendas. Can you say that about your country with same honesty and conviction? I think not.

Just so you don't label all of us as anti-Muslims, I think I speak for a large number of Indians when I say a majority of us have much regard for the Muslim culture despite our vast religious differences. Their contributions in the field of art and literature, music and drama, rich cuisine and language, is appreciated and shared by many of us. It is no wonder then that movies like Mughal-e-Azam, Pakeezah, Veer Zaara, and ghazal singers like Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali are so popular in a predominantly Hindu nation like India. - Arun Mishra - July 31, 2006

It is nice to share thoughts with Sohaib. So Sohaib, we all know the political compulsions of both sides regarding Kashmir. It does not look like anyone has a solution to make all happy. Wars have been fought and there has been ill-will for more than half a century. We are still in square one.

The intellectuals of today have precisely two options. First, to keep the animosity going. In this option both countries will continue to spend very big money, which should have gone to much more useful avenues, in acquiring arms and maintaining huge armies. With growing nuclear stockpiles someday some anger crazed individual will obliterate all of us and/or our progeny. The second option is we learn to live with each other and develop together. Even God has not created very similar individuals but we learn to live together in a society, don't we? If we call ourselves intellectuals, we should be brain storming on compromises and adjustments which will enable us to exist together in peace. Anger and hatred are very basic emotions which are exhibited even by animals. As humans we have to understand each other's limitations and exist together in peace.

There are many ugly or unjust things in the histories of various countries which they have successfully buried in the past and moved ahead on the path of peace and development. Numerous times groups of people have been disadvantaged in the past and are being disadvantaged in our societies today. Should all such people pick up arms? Do we not get raw deals in our own professional lives? Should we pick up arms? Should we plant bombs in our boss's house or kill his kids? How long are we going to behave like cave men and carry our conflicts around our necks? - Rajesh Chaubey - July 31, 2006

It saddens me to see how two countries that were once one have grown so far apart as people. I am a UK born man with Pakistani heritage and have more Indian friends than Pakistanis, I do not believe for a moment that people just can't get along, live and prosper together, no one side is totally innocent, both must share some of the blames. It is a great shame that as people we have not learnt from our history, living as one strong nation, we allowed foreigners to come in and exploit our religious sensitivities and use them against us and split us from each other, with a commonly known slogan that was used "Divide and Conquer". We still haven't awoke to see the bigger picture, working together in harmony is a lot better with respect to security and economic prosperity. I despise people on both sides who are trying to throw a spanner in the works by killing innocent people and derailing us from our journey to peace. I still see us as one, Indians and Pakistanis, we speak the same language and have very similar cultures. We have individual responsibilities to stay strong together and not let these small number of individuals split us apart as this is exactly what they want. We must see our peaceful journey through and share intelligence so we can catch these people together. I know there are people who distrust Pakistan, but Pakistan has captured more senior terrorist suspects than any other nation bar none. We must pull together brothers and sisters and the world will be our oyster. - Ozman, London, England - July 31, 2006

To Sohaib and Ozman: Providing moral support to terrorists is still SUPPORTING the terrorists. What part of supporting the terrorists you don't understand? As Pakistanis you claim that Indians and Pakistanis are the same people. You guys feel that way either because you are trying to fool us or because of the big heart of the Hindus. Unfortunately you guys don't reciprocate this and consider religion over and above race, culture, ethnicity, language, food, customs and common ancestors. Why do you support Arab terrorists against Israel India, UK, Spain, Russia and the US? Simply because you share religion with them. Nothing else matters to you guys. Sad but true and a wake up call for rest of the world. - Rajendra Kumar - July 31, 2006

Hello Everyone, I am Suleman from Pakistan. I feel very sorry after reading such articles which reflect hatred for us and force a common Pakistani like me to reconsider my views regarding India. I know problems do exist between both countries but will anything improve like this? Where are we heading? Opinions described above does not reflect balanced analysis of an issue. I guess we should always think above ourselves when discussing such issues rather then being patriotic. Now as far as this issue of terrorism is concerned frankly like all of you I don't know who did it and I am similarly not sure about the involvement of India in Balochistan province through Afghanistan. None of us have any evidence. Now please don't take me wrong but after all we do need some evidence before convicting someone. If I or Pakistan govt says that Mr. XYZ in India is responsible for terrorism in Pakistan and we want you to punish him, would you do it? Certainly not as no matter how bad that person is you need some evidence to charge him as he is a free citizen of your country. Similarly we need evidence and they are always available after thorough and quality analysis. If your agencies fail to provide such evidence then, please once again, don't take me wrong but do question them. As it's dangerous for you not to find the root cause of a problem. It's very easy for an agency to put blame on specified targets and produce fake evidences. It's very important to authenticate the evidence and make sure it's not biased. This blaming thing will definitely hurt our relations but in longer term will hurt your country as well. Pakistani govt asked for the evidence, just give them authentic evidence and share it with the world then see how can any govt including ours can't take action and if still they don't then you can blame them but not like this. I guess it would be unfair like this. Still if you want to do the same then can't say anything else as you are free to express your views and opinions like me. - Rana Suleman - July 31, 2006

Mr. Rajendra Kumar, I wrote in holding an olive branch hoping for people to take it, instead you insult me and say either I am trying to fool you or its just because of the big hearts of the Hindus. In other words, it is not possible for a person with Pakistani heritage to be peaceful and typically you think everyone who is a Muslim is just a terrorist. It is a very shallow way of thinking. I sense hatred in your heart and this is why with individuals like yourself on the Indian side and individuals with similar thoughts on the Pakistani side will never allow us to move forward and prosper. I agree that killing people is wrong but you seem to think that it's only people in Israel that get killed. There has been total destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure but you don't give that a mention where more than ten times people have been killed, mainly women and children, and it's because of this reason why it's no surprise that progress towards peace is never made. Give yourself a pat on the back. - Ozman - July 31, 2006

This world is funny. As individuals we are highly qualified, magnanimous, caring, sacrificing etc, etc. As a group we are unruly. As a society our intelligence dips to middle school level. As a nation we behave like kindergarten kids.

Watch kindergarten kids playing. One will extend his hand from behind and hit the other on the back of the head. When the victim turns to protest, the first kid will feign innocence and demand “I did not hit you. Did you see me hitting you? Do you have any proof?” If this is repeated often the two kids start abusing each other and then they start wrestling. The teacher comes, attracted by the commotion. In front of the teacher they both point fingers at each other and complain very loudly about each other “He was hitting me on the head.” “Did you see me hitting you? What proof do you have?” So it goes. The teacher spanks both of them. They can not fight with the teacher so they stand there like fools having their ears pulled and cheeks slapped in front of the whole class.

We can play our kiddie games forever. However, please look at the price of this silly game. Do our countries have good infra-structure? Have we eliminated poverty? Can we give good health care to our citizens? Can we provide quality education to our kids?

Yet we concentrate on one-upmanship, rivalry and fighting and then stand around like fools in front of the world having their ears pulled and cheeks slapped. Back home we complain about the teacher. We go to school the next day fight again, get slapped again. We have our shares of highly qualified, intellectuals but do we learn anything? We have been fighting our “mooch ki ladai” from the time we did not have a "mooch" and the way it looks we will keep fighting like beggars on the street, who have little earthly possessions, but still afford the luxury to put up a show for the world at their own cost. After all we are highly qualified intellectuals. - Rajesh Chaubey - July 31, 2006

For anyone and everyone who has been asking for evidence on Pakistan's hand in subversive terror plots, here are a few

1. Couple of days ago a Pakistan major was shot dead along with a few terrorists after they had crossed the border. The news was also aired on CNN and other leading news channel here in US. So much so for Pakistani army's involvement.

2. And now the surrender in Kashmir - 12 militants from different outfits laid down arms in Baramullah district. The militants divulged the news media how they were lured into arms training and then brainwashed into believing the doctrine of Jihad and were then forced to cross the LOC. These militants also uncovered the role of Pakistan's ISI activities in the valley. The reason they were giving up their arms was because a number of Kashmiri youths in ISI's training camps had either committed suicide or were left doing menial jobs.

3. If you are not content with all these then how about Pakistan giving shelter to Dawood Ibrahim who has been declared as an international terrorist. According to Interpol Dawood is presently stationed in Pakistan with two addresses - one in Lahore and the other in Islamabad where he openly moves around without any fear. Recently Pakistan turned down India's request to hand over Dawood who is a prime suspect in the 1993 Mumbai bomb blasts.

It is ridiculous how some of these people of Pakistani origin can actually have the bravado to defend Pakistan's disgusting acts of aiding and abetting terrorism in India. Every other terrorist who is shot dead or caught in India somehow bears an identity that traces them to Pakistan - be it from their passport, driver's license or some other documentary substantiation and yet some of these readers have the temerity to ask for evidence.

But there is no point blaming Pakistan when we have home grown terror networks like SIMI that provide the logistics and other forms of support to these LeT commanders including food, accommodation, running errands for information and helping them with bomb fuselage from local shops. And then we have the biggest perpetrators of all - the ever spineless cowards who are better known as the politicians of our country who can never think of India's welfare beyond the ballot boxes. They think going after Islamist knuckleheads would undermine their Muslim vote-bank. If push comes to shove they will readily sell their mothers to preserve their ballot boxes. Such is their pusillanimity and their rogue-ness. They are our biggest enemies. - Siddharth Verma - July 31, 2006

Dear Siddharth Verma, once again I am extremely disappointed to read your comments. Dear if you read my mail properly then you will notice that I said authentic evidence. If what you mentioned is evidence then our agencies also caught many terrorists in Baluchistan and Punjab who admitted that RAW trained them and equipped them with explosives and arms. This is certainly not an evidence and you can't even convict that person on this statement in any court around the world. Grow-up!

The man Indians claimed to be Pakistani major is not a Pakistani major and credentials India provided are wrong. Officer with such credentials is alive and serving in Quetta, Baluchistan. If it's aired by CNN does not mean its true. CNN also broadcast about the WMDs in Iraq, what about them?

Dear such things will not be of any good. Both Pakistan and India have great potential to lead this area. Have you ever considered the fact that what Pakistan, India and China can achieve if they join hands? Or we always want to be playing in the hands of other powers and fighting for their cause here? All three countries are fastest growing economies and believe me they can do wonders if they join hands.

Please don't show such hatred and join hands for a better future. These terrorist want us to stop this peace process and if we do what they want then we are playing in their hands. Stopping the peace process means we are strengthening the extremists on both sides. On the other hand if we find a path to live peacefully then these terrorists will die themselves and lose their ground and roots automatically on both sides. Just think!!

If Dawood is moving so freely in Pakistan then why didn't any media captured anything? According to Pakistan he is not here and we never refused to hand him over to India as he is your citizen. But once again authentic evidence is required. It's similar if I say that Osama Bin Laden lives in Delhi and moves freely. Can I prove his presence? No. Indian media claimed his presence in Karachi few months ago but the house they pointed was not of Dawood's. Interpol does not have any evidence about his presence and once again by saying that he is here is not enough. Provide evidence and we will certainly hand him over. Regards - Rana Suleman - Aug. 1, 2006

Dear Mr. Suleman:

It is clear that you will never admit certain facts. We are wasting our time here. Pakistan has proven again and again that it cannot be trusted. Joining hands with Pakistan will be suicidal for India. You can send all the olive branch you want - heck, you can send the entire olive tree to India - Pakistan can never be trusted and anyone who thinks otherwise either doesn't know the history or lives on Mars.

Everyone knows your country is hiding Dawood but you continue to mislead India. This is not a baseless statement like "Osama is in New Delhi"!!! This is a fact based on dozens of intelligence reports. But we don't expect you to admit it anyway.

As far as India is considered, Pakistan sponsors terrorism and shelters terrorist. Period.

This has got nothing to do with Hindus and Muslims as you may want to interpret to give it a communal look. This is all about your government and government policies.

Until Pakistan admits it and shun all terrorist activities that is sponsored by it, install democracy, and let the democracy mature for 10-15 years, trusting Pakistan will simply be committing hara-kiri.

Unfortunate? No doubt about it. Ground reality? Absolutely!

Once again, I would like to emphasize this feeling of distrust is entirely against your government and its policies and not directed against law-abiding, decent citizens of Pakistan. I personally know several Pakistanis and they are as good as one can get.

But when it comes to your government, your political system, your national policies - sorry, it will a cold day in hell before India would honestly trust Pakistan. - Arun Mishra - Aug. 1, 2006

Ozman, are you holding the olive branch so that we become careless and trusting and you can hurt us when we least expect. It's an old trick and the whole world knows about it now. - Rajendra Kumar - Aug. 1, 2006

Just saw in the news. Two people trained in Pakistani terror factories arrested in the US. They were there with some major deadly agenda. US is releasing satellite pictures of the Pak terror camps. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 1, 2006

It is with deep sadness that I have been reading this thread. From reading this, it would seem that the sectarianism that has infected the world has deep roots in Bihar, too. How sad for all of us! I would like to offer a few suggestions, however. First, much of this does not seem appropriate to be posted in this forum. In fact, much of it is far too personal to be given public exposure, in my opinion. Secondly, I wonder what happened to treating others as you wish to be treated. (It has to begin somewhere). How easy to forget the simple things we learned and believed as small children. Lastly, I suspect that if each one of us began reading our own holy books (the actual books and not the scholarly interpretations of the meanings) and trying to understand the words as written, then no one would be able to claim a religion as a justification for hurtful acts. No one would be able to treat others without respect and basic human dignity. - Carolyn - Aug. 2, 2006

Carolyn, we had serial blasts in Mumbai and it did not find a mention on this forum of well wishers until one conscientious reader pointed at this apparent indifference. Were we all trying hard to push it under the carpet as we discussed the love story of a professor thread bare? Why were we pushing it under the carpet? Would we do the same if someone close to us was hurt? With that in mind, I wrote the original article. The response, as you can see, has come from a few readers of Indian origin and a few readers from Pakistan. Both have had their predictable stands but still ideas were exchanged without being bad to each other. A clear distinction was made between the majority of good people in Pakistan and the government policies. I think talking about a problem is the first step in trying to solve it. We may still maintain our stance on such topics but a thought process starts within and that is important. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 2, 2006

On the lighter side, we are one comment up here on the 19 comments of the professor's love story. It shows people on PD do care and are not indifferent to the sufferings of others. Perhaps most of us think that nothing can be achieved by talking about it. I hope more people talked about it. I repeat talking about a problem is the first step in trying to solve it. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 2, 2006

Dear Sohaib, Suleman, and Ozman.

Welcome on this forum. Nice to see you guys on this forum defending your country. Let me here introduce myself to you. My name is Anjum Parwej, from Bihar (India), currently working in Saudi Arabia.

I have been reading all the comments posted from both the sides with keen interest. You three have done well so far, and my fellow countrymen have also tried their best to prove their point. As I see, basically we Indians have lack of trust towards your government and other establishments who are born hostile towards India. And we have solid reasons behind having such mistrust towards them. It started with division of our country (Pakistanis said they can't live with Indians and insisted on division), then came 1965 war (Gen. Ayub khan is on record on BBC admitting it was Pakistan who attacked India) and touched its zenith during Kargil War. While our then PM Mr. Vajpayee was talking peace with your PM in Lahore, your incumbent President was busy in designing an attack on India. So friends, we don't trust your Mr. Musharraf. He can shout from the roof top talking peace and CBMs, but we are not impressed.

Coming back to the main topic, your Government's policy is to bleed India till the time J&K issue is settled as per their wish. Let me assure you it is not going to happen. We are not going to give you an inch in J&K. We would rather suggest you to adopt Indo-China model. India and China have border dispute, but that is not affecting our trade relations. Talk is progressing on border issue and side by side we are improving our trade relations too. Trade talks are not hostage to resolution of border dispute.

As far as issue of evidence is concerned, did your government have any evidence against Osama Bin Laden and Mulla Omar that they were behind 9/11 Twin Tower attack. There was no solid evidence, still your President admitted of having been shown enough evidence to facilitate attack on Afghanistan (Ref PTV news Musharraf admitting this and Collin Powell smiling standing behind Musharraf). Same forces fighting on your western border become terrorists and when on Eastern side they become Jehadis. This is why we say we don't trust your government.

Let me also clarify here that we have no animosity towards general public of Pakistan. They are as much interested in peace as we are. Unfortunately they have been continuously misled by Pakistan Military that India is an enemy of Pakistan and only a military ruler can safeguard their life and property.

It is high time people like you who are genuinely interested in peace and good relations with India take an independent stand and facilitate peace process. We are disappointed with your Government's performance. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 2, 2006

Here are some lines of Mirza Ghalib for this discussion:

Har ek baat pe kehte ho tum ke 'too kya hai',
tumhee kaho ke yeh andaaz-e-guftgoo kya hai?

Chipak raha hai badan par lahoo se pairaahan,
hamari jeb ko ab haajat-e-rafoo kya hai?

Jalaa hai jism jahaan dil bhee jal gaya hoga,
kuredate ho jo ab raakh, justjoo kya hai?

Rahi na taaqat-e-guftaar, aur agar ho bhee,
to kis ummeed pe kahiye ke aarzoo kya hai?

- Kumod Jha - Aug. 2, 2006

Very aptly put, Mr. Parwej. - Arun Mishra - Aug. 2, 2006

As very aptly put by Mr. Parwej, can some Pakistani friend elaborate why Pakistan can not follow the Indo-China model of friendly, neighborly relations? That could have vastly benefited both. Or is it that Pakistan is being used by other countries to destabilize India? If all the talk of a growing Pakistani economy is true, Pakistan should stop behaving like someone's servant and start making policies which serve it's interests of fast development. Pakistan should mature and behave like India and China. The world today sees Pakistan in a poor light as a country which harbors terrorists. When will the world see a Pakistan whose agenda is development and not India hatred. A Pakistan whose steering wheel is in the hands of its intellectual class. When will the world see a Pakistan it can respect? - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 2, 2006

Some people here are talking like they are politicians sitting across a table. I would only like to say that despite what the governments say or do, as a people we can make a difference. It is down to the individual to change and see the bigger picture. If not, fine, we can all just hate each other and this can go on forever. I am personally not going to have this attitude, I am a positive man and will continue to spread peace and continue to have friends of all races and faiths. If the attitude and steps are taken to make the majority see the bigger picture which is peace and prosperity, the minority who wish for this not to happen will be crushed by us. We just have to make our voices heard and spread the understanding. It's not going to be easy. No, many people, inside forces and out will try to derail us, but if we are going to be at each others' throats every time some terrorist does something, then we are living by the will of terror and making it succeed. To defeat it we must show that we will not be deterred and we will root these people out of society and into prisons where they belong. - Ozman - Aug. 2, 2006

Well said Ozman. Politicians on your side use this filthy trick for cheap popularity and politicians on our side divide society for votes. We all have to think and find ways of isolating such people. They say power corrupts. So you put anyone in that chair and, sooner or later, that person will start using the same dirty tricks for short cut popularity. That leaves only one option. Change the system. We must brain storm and adopting such modifications to the rules of our governance which keep the leaders on the right track by closing the other negative options. For that to happen we must first use our media effectively to educate people of what games are being played with their money. That brings us back to what I had written in the original article. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 4, 2006

Dear Anjum,

The reason I posted my comments in here was simply that I wanted to discuss issues and clarify that what Mr. Rajesh had written in his article is not true, and his hatred towards people of Pakistan and Pakistanis is evident. Being a Pakistani I was hurt and just wanted to realize you all that he has done something wrong and I guess you all must agree with me that the such articles and attitude is not appreciable. Such thoughts reflect the attitude of extremists on your side as well and its the responsibility of all the moderate people on both sides to come forward and raise our voices against such elements. I am very optimistic about the future of Pakistan and India and if Mr. Rajesh is not then I feel sorry about him. Such issues take time and can not be solved overnight or in few decades even. If Europe can unite after decades of conflicts and wars so can we without a doubt.

Now coming to your point, look Anjum in all my replies have you noticed that I have not used any harsh or abusing word for your country or Govt? I can also use same words for your Govt as well and I can back my comments with certain evidences also but I don't want to use such words which hurt other people. Dear if people are so interested to dig the past then dear do I have to provide evidence of what happened in 1971 and who supported terrorists at that time? Mukti was terrorist for us and freedom fighter for you vice versa of what is happening today. How was it correct then and wrong today? Secondly can you please tell me who own Siachin area? Is Pakistan sitting on your land or India sitting on our land? Your Govt started jumping and crying on Kargil but we never cry no matter its terrorism in our country from Afghanistan or Siachin like issues. As far as 1965 war is concerned I am sorry I don't agree there. It was Pakistan who refused to attack India during Indo China war. You never appreciated that. India committed for free and fair referendum in Kashmir asking Kashmiris to decide what they want and it was India who went to UN and It was India who backed away.

As far as Osama is concerned yes dear there is evidence against him and he admitted all this in his videos even at that time such evidence existed which U.S Govt shared with Pakistan (I don't know what else is evidence) and on the bases on which Pakistan tried to pursue Mullah Omer to hand him over and stop supporting him. He refused and results are there. President said that there was no evidence against Taliban but as they supported refused to hand over Osama so there was no other option but to support U.S and let them do what they want. As far as Osama is concerned enough evidence was there and still is there.

Dear it's not my purpose to hurt anyone but just to show you that we in Pakistan also have many reasons not to believe your Govt and country same as you have. We can dig this past for years and it will bear no result. Still we want to live in past then please do as I don't want to and if we still want to be a part of past then sorry I am out of this discussion. I don't know how to convince you all that look for the future and forget past. Our determination for peace should not shake no matter what happens. I will still be optimistic even if we fight another 3-4 wars and time will prove that Pakistan and India will ultimately find peaceful means through dialog. Sorry to say but who are you or me to decide the fate of Kashmiri people? It's the people of Kashmir who should decide what they want and how they want as promised by India. Let them decide and once again I am optimistic and sure that they will find a solution. Lastly I and majority of Pakistani people trust and believe in our Govt and President same as you trust your Govt. We have right to disagree and criticize the policies of other Govt but this criticism must be done in a civilized and constructive manner. Using such articles will not do any good rather they will increase hate and provide reasons to neutral people to thing otherwise. You criticize our Govt and people that they are not good and your people and Govt are always standing with open arms. Look at the comments and you will know that all Pakistanis talking about peace and have optimism about a brighter future unlike sorry to say many friends from other side. In 1950's your Govt said we can never trust Pakistan as they separated, in 1960's they said due to Kashmir and 1948 war we can never trust Pakistan, in 1970's we can never trust Pakistan due to 1965 war they are culprits, 1980's we can never trust Pakistan due to 1965, 1948 etc and in 1990's and 2000 terrorism and Kargil. Were there ever any suitable circumstances or will there ever be such circumstances where Govt of India stop running and start peace initiative with a strong resolution that no matter what happens we will solve issues. Dear nations have to talk even after war if India thinks that they can solve issues with war then more then welcome JUST TRY IT else I guess we should keep discussing and stop blaming and start talking and discussing issues. - Rana Suleman - Aug. 4, 2006

Mr. Suleman, I have been reading this thread with some interest but couldn't resist jumping into it after your last harangue.

Before you call anyone extremist, look inside you. You are a prime example of someone who cannot be trusted. You talk sweet and the moment Mr. Rajesh Chaubey turned his back on you, you stabbed him by calling him an extremist.

I suggest you read Mr. Rajesh Chaubey's views on a multitude of topics written right here on PatnaDaily.Com before labeling him as an extremist. To say that Mr. Chaubey is an extremist is like saying Mother Teresa was a sex worker! Apparently you have trouble understanding English and comprehending complex thoughts.

In your lame attempt to justify your country, you have nit-picked examples that suit your political design. We can play the same game if you wish. If Kashmir is for Kashmiris and they have the right to choose; why in the world are you interfering with them and supporting them with money and arms and terrorist logistics? What is it to you? Leave them alone to fight with India if they have a problem with India. But peace in Kashmir is not your ultimate goal - your goal is to be a perpetual pain in the neck as Pakistan had been since 1947.

Read your own statement and see who is talking like a politician.

We have full reasons to not trust Pakistan and there is ample evidence to back up our stand. Now if that hurts your feeling then it's just too bad. Just talking peace, peace, does not do anything for India. Show some concrete proof. As it stands right now, Pakistan is not to be trusted. Plain and simple whether you like it or not.

You should be thankful to an Indian web site that is allowing you to express your opinions here freely. If we tried to make our case on a Pakistani forum, it wouldn't be too long before we were banned permanently and the Dawoods sheltered and harbored by you coming after us. - Anil Kumar - Aug. 4, 2006

Rana Suleman Mr. Rajesh is no extremist. Apparently you have not read his comments carefully or you have chosen to ignore the contents of his comments. Please read once more before writing in.

I had asked "Can some Pakistani friend elaborate why Pakistan can not follow the Indo-China model of friendly, neighborly relations?" and you say to "If India thinks that they can solve issues with war then more then welcome JUST TRY IT". How many times has India attacked Pakistan to resolve disputes? It is apparent that either you are the modern day Don Quixote or you are too young to be in this discussion. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 4, 2006

Dear Anil and Rajesh,

Does it hurt? I wrote it just to let you know how it feels when you talk like this. I was talking so politely and trying to convince everyone with reasoning and logic but many people from your side were consistently using harsh and painful words and kept digging the past. I was expecting this response. I told you using such words are not a difficult thing to do but it won’t bear any results. Now you felt the pain and within a second started jumping and calling me untrustworthy etc. This is what I call as immaturity. A person trying to convince you he is not calling you terrorist or using any harsh words even though you are calling his people and country terrorist etc. Similarly as soon as he adopts your tone you can not tolerate anything.

You can not even reply to so many questions I asked. I provided proper reasoning against each and every allegation of yours but you can not even answer one. Now it’s an easier escape to say that I am using the reasoning which suits me or my political designs. You ask opinion from neutral people of some other country related to this thread and they will let you know who is mature and who is not. I guess we should leave the decision to people.

I don’t want you to trust me and it will not change anything in my life whether you trust me or not. You can not and trust me fine no problem then I also do not trust you them, is it fine now?

I asked for evidence on the bases of which an article has been written and so many allegations rose on Pakistan. Sorry but I could not find a single evidence. Let me clarify one more thing like many of you here I am not against a person or paper or country. I am against the ideas expressed here and personally I do not even know any of you here. As far as allowing me to speak here yes it’s indeed a very good thing and I thank this paper for this. No matter how harsh the discussions are they are always better then wars. You are more than welcome to come and discuss issues at our sites and new paper sites to. They will also allow you same freedom as well. Some might not but this will not prove that no one welcomes you or there is no freedom of speech. This is once again what I am trying to tell you that good and bad people and things exist everywhere but they do not reflect everyone in general. There are many Indian sites on web which never allowed me to express myself and rather abused me and Pakistanis in return of polite gestures and I can name many, but once again I am not blaming all of you.

Mr. Rajesh you asked such an innocent question that why can’t follow indo-china model. Hmm good question, Will you please tell me why can’t we follow Northern Ireland and England model? If you have slightest know how of things then you must know that one model can not be applied to all scenarios. A very comprehensive model exist of Kashmir by U.N Security Council as agreed by India can you please tell me why we can not follow that model which India agreed to follow? - Rana Suleman - Aug. 5, 2006

Sorry friends, Thu & Fridays being weekend in Saudi Arabia I was not able to post my comments. Here is my answer to Mr. Rana Suleman.

Mr. Rana, first of all I would request you to go through the last two paragraph of my previous posting. I have agreed that average Pakistani citizens are as much interested in peace as we are. I have also appreciated your stand on the issue and expressed my hope on you. Mr. Rana, we are not here to let down each other, we are interested in healthy discussion. When an issue like Indo-Pak relation is discussed it is natural to have some hard talk but you must appreciate that none of us have crossed the limit of decency.

Coming back to the issues you have raised, allow me to put it this way:-

1965 War: I request you to re-check your source of information. India had just fought a war with China, was in bad shape logistically. Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto advised Gen Ayub that this is the time Pakistan should attack India and take J&K from India. I repeat Gen Ayub is on record admitting this to Mr. Kuldip Nayar on BBC.
1971 War: We admit we helped Mukti Vahini during 1971 war. The only difference between 65 and 71 war is that while we successfully defended ourselves in 65, your Gen Yahya Khan ordered 98,000 Pak forces to surrender without fighting. This resulted in bifurcation of your country. Gen Niazi was so overwhelmed with this surrender that he himself was supervising arrangement for surrender ceremony in Calcutta. Mr. Rana, you will not like reading to all this but it is true. There was a group in Pakistan who expressed satisfaction over division of your country. You can refer to the book "The Fall of Dhaka" written by Salik Ahmad, then press attaché in Dhaka for the Government of Pakistan. He has given first hand account of the whole war.

However, more important aspect that should be discussed here is that why this Mukti Vahini came into being? Mujibur Rahman's party had a clear majority in election and Bhutto's PPP had got only 85 seats. Still Mujibur Rahman was not allowed to form Government. WHY? Because Pakistanis never accepted Bengalis as fellow citizens. They were never given their due share. They were called Kale Kameene (sorry for language) and were treated badly by Pakistanis. They were not ready to accept Bengalis as their political master. Bengalis then organized themselves and formed Mukti Vahini.

9/11 Evidence: Mr. Rana, US has still not been able to give any evidence against Osama and Mulla Omar. If Bush has shown something personally to you then I don't have any comment. Fact of the matter is that your country offered three of your airports, intelligence, and logistics support to US to earn dollars. Imran Khan rightly says whenever there is a problem in Afghanistan; Pakistan's foreign Exchange Reserve increases. Mr. Rana, innocent Afghans have been brutally murdered and your country has played a role in it just to earn dollars. The recent surge in Pakistan economy is directly related to millions of dollars Pakistan earned as a butcher. No video was received from Osama at the time of attack on Afghanistan. And if Mulla Omar was not ready to hand over Osama to US, it was their problem. How come Pakistan came into picture and became front line state against terrorism. It was just for dollars and to establish Musharraf in power.

Plebiscite in J&K: Read the first point of UN resolution on J&K. It says Pakistan must vacate the occupied territory of J&K and come back to 15th August 1947 status. Dear what are you doing there then? Just get out of the place and then talk about UN resolution. Mr. Rana, J&K is now inseparable part of India. We have a letter of accession from then ruler of J&K which was later ratified by the J&K assembly. As I said we will not give you an inch in J&K. However, we are always interested in talk. In fact this issue was about to be resolved in 1999. Mr. Niaz Naik from Pakistan and Mr. R. K. Mishra from India were engaged in track two diplomacy. Both of them were directly reporting to their respective PMs. This is the first time in Indo-Pak history that pencil was drawn on J&K map. Various formula, like East of Chenab, Kashmir Group, were discussed and both parties were about to reach on an agreement. But… Kargill happened in between. In fact Kargil was done to sabotage this peace process. Pakistan Military will never ever allow resolution of J&K problem in an amicable manner. Because then they loose their importance in their domestic structure of Governance. Mr. Rana we have always been interested in talks and we have always extended our hands for friendship. But reply from your country has been negative. We invited Musharraf to Agra in 2001. He should have utilized this opportunity, but he was just not ready to accept our concern for terrorism. Musharraf never accepted cross border terrorism, but when he himself was attacked in 2003 by LeT, he realized the menace of terrorism.

Mr. Rana, having said all that I appreciate your concern for peace and good neighborly relations between two countries. There are hawks on both sides, we have to recognize and eliminate them. We are not extremists, and if defending our country is extremism then we are proud to be an extremist.

I recognize your contribution and keep lots of hope on people like you. Please establish a legitimate representative Government in your country, liberate yourself from Military rule and Waderas, decide for once and all who will govern Pakistan – elected Government or Military, create an atmosphere for talks, and you will not find us wanting as far as peace process is concerned. Regards. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 5, 2006

I wrote the original article expressing concern over nuclear brinkmanship of Pakistan. Just because they have managed to acquire nuclear bombs does it qualify them to attack the Parliament of a neighboring country or to send terrorists to commit heinous acts of terror on their neighbor's soil? Pakistan's attitude is visible in the statement "If India thinks that they can solve issues with war then more then welcome JUST TRY IT". If you brush up your history you will find that India has never attacked any other country in centuries. Yes, India has fought wars to defend itself. Pakistan could not dream of a more peace loving neighbor on this planet.

As a democracy decision making is slow in India. In order to ensure that any innocent person is not punished the legal process is also painfully slow. Also the vices associated with a democracy are very much present - the opposition will oppose no matter what, society is divided by politicians for votes etc. All this makes us a soft target and emboldens Pakistan.

If we have to end terror, India must take the initiative of forming an alliance with countries that matter to exert pressure on the jingoes in Pakistan. Slowly but surely such an alliance is being formed with US, Russia and even China getting friendlier with India and a growing realization among countries that terror is like cancer. If you operate it and a few malignant cells get left behind the cancer will spread again. The same cells can cause cancer to grow in any other part of the body. Unraveling the analogy, terrorism as a means to achieve any goal, how-so-ever legitimate, should be unacceptable to all sane countries of the world. It must be rooted out from everywhere. If you call it by any other name and spare it, just because it is not affecting you at present, tomorrow your citizens will be targeted. No country can afford hypocrisy on terror. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 5, 2006

Mr. Rana, we can follow Indo-China model in context of India and Pakistan too which will be a win win situation for both the countries. Trade through Dubai makes Indian goods expensive in Pakistan. We have experienced in the recent past how direct trade between two countries has helped Pakistan contain prices of essential commodities and surge its over all economy. Indian businessmen have also benefited by selling their products to Pakistan. So, it is beneficial for both of us. But it requires vision to look beyond immediate future which has become a rare commodity now a days.

As regards UN Model in J&K, during his 2002 visit to India Secretary General Kofi Annan himself said that this resolution is no longer applicable due to fundamental change in the demography of the state. We have given special status to J&K through article 370 of the Constitution of India. J&K enjoys wide ranging autonomy under this provision. Our Kashmiri brothers are happy and satisfied with the current state of affairs. Though we agree there is a group existing in Kashmir being helped from across the border who are dissatisfied. They are continuously being misled by some vested interest. However, our army is taking care of them and we hope things will be alright soon.

Still if you insist on application of UN resolution then you better vacate Pak Occupied Kashmir as required in the resolution. We will then see what we can do to resolve this issue. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 5, 2006

Nice talking to all you guys but I think this is now starting to go round in
circles, so at that note, I wish to bid you all a nice life.

Salaam Namaste - Ozman - Aug. 7, 2006

Sorry friends I was also a bit busy and was unable to participate and reply. Hmm.. I guess a long list of new questions is there to be answered. I will try to answer them one by one. But let me appreciate Mr. Anjum who admitted that India supported Mukti in Bangladesh. I would like to clarify one more thing, look dear I know there were political problems in Bangladesh but does this mean that we being another country start interfering in that country’s internal matters by supporting terrorism? You might call them freedom fighters but for us Mukti was terrorists. Let’s suppose for a second that we Pakistan are supporting Kasmiri freedom fighters who are terrorists for you, then why everyone cries now? If you did something that has courage to face it, we accepted the circumstances manfully without crying all over the world.

If Pakistan is the problem creator as you say then why Sri Lanka (Govt. accuse India to support terrorism in Sri Lanka by supporting LTTE), Bangladesh (Border skirmishes on multiple occasions in which many India and Bengali soldiers killed) China (fought war and have hostile relations) and Pakistan (no details required) all have problem with India? Why all these Govt. complain about India? I guess they all lie according to definitions here.

No one answered me why India still sitting in Siachin? Is this not unfair? You can not tolerate others on your side of disputed area but you can cross international borders and capture the area for decades?

9/11: Why are you so sympathetic for Taliban and Al-Qaeda? U.S Govt. did provided the evidence and yes I do know it. Even if they not provided it’s between Pakistan, USA and Afghanistan, what is your interest in it? I guess it has nothing to do with India if we let USA use our bases. I guess we gave them the bases for a great cause and today whole world appreciates the role of Pakistan against terrorism. We have proven it and world accepts this fact.

Kashmir: Great to read about democracy in Pakistan I am really impressed with your love for democracy as you mentioned that Owner of Kashmir handed over the ownership of Kashmir to India through a letter. Great one letter is important then the wishes of million of people. Secondly let me tell you one more thing clearly that it’s our internal thing and we have to decide what sort of Govt. we want. This is democracy and if we people of Pakistan (majority) want a man in uniform as our president and we elected him through referendum and parliament then what is your problem with that?

Kashmir resolution and facts: According to UN Security Council resolution on Kashmir “A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER
1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
(a) To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State”

Does it say that Pakistan armed forces have to withdraw? It clearly says that people non resident and came for fighting not the army or regular troops of Pakistan army. Still if India is so sincere then you please announce today that you are ready for it and we will make sure that satisfy all the requirements. Now come on India signed it why backing off for decades now?
Go to graveyards in Kashmir and see 100thousand graves there of people killed in violence and see how many of them are Pakistani nationals? I am not denying that no Pakistani was ever involved but I am saying that it’s a freedom struggle of the people of Kashmir mainly and there might be some elements from Pakistan who participate in it but mainly it’s a Kasmiri freedom struggle. Getting arms and ammunition is not an issue now a days and it’s not necessary that Govt. of Pakistan providing them with arms. Who is providing arms to people in Asam and Nagaland? - Rana Suleman - Aug. 7, 2006

(Editor's note to Mr. Suleman: We appreciate your participation in this very long-winded, passionate discussion on this issue. We, however, do not put links of anti-India propaganda web sites on this site. Also, please note this discussion is about India-Pakistan and their nuclear readiness. What happened in Gujarat is not a part of this debate so please limit your arguments to the original topic otherwise we don't see any end to this already too long discussion. Thank you.)

Bye Ozman, it was wonderful talking to you. Hope you write regularly on PD on diverse topics. - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 7, 2006

Mr. Rana Suleman has listed a long list of grudges against India. Ask an Indian and he will have a longer list of grudges against Pakistan. Question is not who has a longer list. Question is where do we go from here? While the developed world has resolved it's mutual problems in peace and is moving ahead on the path of progress, shall India and Pakistan keep nursing grudges against each other for what the leaders of these countries have done in the past? Shall we keep hostilities going for ever? Shall we keep acquiring more arms with money badly needed for the welfare of our citizens? By being hawkish are we not committing a crime against the deprived people in our societies? Who is accountable for that? Can we, who can hopefully be called intellectuals, find a way to put our differences on the back seat? God fixed our heads on our shoulders looking ahead. How long are some of us going to keep it turned 180 degrees, looking at the past? As I pointed out earlier, wars have been fought and there has been ill-will for more than half a century. We are still in square one.

Kashmir has become a complex problem where both countries have fixed political stands. Till we sit with balancing scales doing calculations of who gained what, we will continue to go around in circles. To break this circle we have to concentrate on a good future and stop looking back at the gory past. I do not see that happening here. We have to decide what we want to leave for our kids, peace and prosperity our hated and violence.

Animosity with India with a blend of religion is very profitable for a few. It also has kept the Pakistani army powerful. Imagine if all conflicts with India were to be resolved or put on the back seat (Indo-China model) the large well funded Pakistani army would seem irrelevant and soon some well meaning democratically elected leader would start disbanding it to divert funds for developmental work to benefit the common man of Pakistan. Pakistan would then become a rich, prosperous, peace loving country, at harmony with it's neighbors. India, which is always offering it's hand for friendship, would reciprocate and disband it's army to fund badly needed developmental work. Mutually beneficial trade would increase. South Asia would become prosperous.

That is why I have been referring to 1% in my original article. Today that 1% calls the shots. The remaining 99% have no voice. However, a question for that 99%. Can your life and/or the life of your kids be affected by the 1% jingoes among you? Where does perpetual suspicion, one-upmanship, ill-will, proxy war and acquisition of nuclear arms lead to? Ask yourself.

I find that, as Ozman pointed out, we have started going in circles. I quit this discussion with the hope that a positive thought process starts from it. I thank all who participated... - Rajesh Chaubey - Aug. 8, 2006

Dear Mr. Rana,

Thanks for your response. This is the basic difference between India and Pakistan. We do own our actions. We accept we were involved in 71 war, we don't deny it. We had to settle 65 war and we did it by helping Mukti Vahini. 71 issue was not a political problem. The very logic of formation of Pakistan was made null and void. Pakistanis never accepted Bangladeshis. They proved that religion can not be the basis of a nation. Religion is no doubt important, but it can not be the sole architecture of a nation.

Pakistan never accepted that they sent their army in J&K in 1947. Ever thought who were these tribesmen and Pak nationals? Why did they enter in J&K? Who sent them in J&K? What were their motives? Try to find out answer to this, you will get better reply to the issues you have raised. Friends, they were Pak regular army, sent by your Govt, but once again you will not accept this, typical of Pakistanis. You have been asked to get out of J&K, do it then we will suitably respond.

As regards peoples wish, why didn't you give independent Pakhtoonistan to Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan in NWFP? If you were so concerned about popular mandate and people wish you should have allowed him to establish an independent Pakhtoonistan in NWFP. But you didn't. So, don’t talk about people's wish my dear. Moreover, while discussing this issue we should also consider the opinion of people from Jammu and Laddakh. Valley is not the entire J&K.

When India was divided in 1947, three independent states came into existence - India, Pakistan, and J&K. In October Pak regular army attacked J&K. Then ruler of J&K Maharaja Hari Singh asked for India's help. And then only we entered into J&K. Later Maharaja himself signed letter of accession which has been suitably and repeatedly ratified by J&K assembly. We don't need anything else to prove that J&K is inseparable part of India now. Still, we have responded to your concerns and tried to settle the issue with you. I repeat this was about to be settled in 1999 between Mr. Vajpayee and Mr. Sharif. But Kargil came in between and achievements made by Mr. Vajpayee and Mr. Sharif were spoiled by Musharraf. We again invited him in Agra, and he again spoiled the whole thing. And this is the reason I raised the issue of Popular Government and Democracy in Pakistan. I accept I have no right to interfere in your domestic affairs. But as your Military is not interested in peace with India we are forced to suggest that you first liberate yourself from your Military and Waderas then we can transact business. You select your President by referendum but don't accept the wishes of democratically elected J&K assembly.

As regards evidence against Osama and Mulla Omar, this issue was raised because you asked for evidence against terrorists who were involved in Bombay blast, and in reply I said even you did not have any evidence against Osama and Mulla Omar. Still you facilitated attack on your neighbor just to earn dollars. Mr. Rana you are being used, accept it. The Great Cause you are referring to must be millions your Govt has earned by letting US carpet bombing innocent Afghans.

Regarding problem with neighbors, we don't have any problem with any of our neighbor except you. Pakistan is the only country in the region spreading hatred and exporting terrorism. All our neighbors are pretty happy with us. We never supported LTTE, rather we sent IPKF in Sri Lanka to fight against LTTE on President Jaywardne's request. We don't have any issue with Bangladesh, they value our contribution in their independence struggle and liberation. We have very cordial relations with China, just check the volume of trade between us; you will get your answer.

I believe you have referred the issue of Gujarat in your posting which has been edited by the editor. I accept this was a bad phase in our history (like you have many). But these small incidents are not going to divide us. I am a Muslim; let me tell you one thing. We will accept killing of thousands of Muslims, but not a small scar on India. Unity and integrity of India is more important for us than our lives. Any attempt to divide us will be suitably replied.

People have started losing interest in the topic and this discussion might be stopped now. Here is mypersonal ID , you are most welcome to respond and proceed further.

My thanks to Ozman for making this discussion lively. Ozman, we are your brothers dear, you take one step towards us; we will respond with 100 steps. Regards. - Anjum Parwej - Aug. 8, 2006

Discussion on this topic is now closed.